Closing The Money Gaps, with Sallie Krawcheck
Episode 25: Closing The Money Gaps, with Sallie Krawcheck
As the chair of Ellevate Network and Founder and CEO of Ellevest, Sallie Krawcheck is on a mission to close the money gaps: the gender pay gap, the gender investing gap, the gender achievement gap. In this episode Sallie shares news about her upcoming book, Own It, the skills women bring to the table in this changing business environment, her career journey, dealing with the naysayers and her lessons learned as a mom.
00:00 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Ellevate Podcast, conversations of women changing the face of business. And now your host, Kristy Wallace.
00:13 Kristy Wallace: Hello and welcome to the Ellevate Podcast. Maricela, do you know who our guest is today?
00:19 Maricella: I know you have interviewed the most famous person yet on the Ellevate Podcast. [chuckle]
00:25 KW: Yes, I have. [chuckle] So today on the podcast, someone we all know and love, Sallie Krawcheck is on as my guest. Oh, it was so much fun 'cause I got to interview her. I feel like she's always interviewing me [chuckle], asking me lots of questions and I got to turn the tables which was really fun. I had a great time doing it.
00:48 Maricella: That's awesome, you guys sounded great. I heard the raw interview and chuckled quite a bit through it. [chuckle] But that's just 'cause I know you guys.
00:58 KW: Yeah. No, we really had a good time and we talked about so many fantastic things. So, many of you might know Sallie bought Ellevate network back in 2013. Recently she launched Ellevest, which is an investing platform for women. So we talked a lot about her own experience as an entrepreneur as well as the work she's doing to close the gender investing gap. So a little spoiler, Sallie is also soon to be an author. Did you know about this? Am I spoiling it for you?
01:29 Maricella: For me?
01:30 KW: Yeah.
01:30 Maricella: No. I knew. I knew.
01:33 KW: Yes. Sallie's coming out with a book in January called 'Own it'. Now I'm giving away all the good stuff, so you just have to listen to the whole interview to learn more. Before we get started I know we have some interesting data which is as a recovering research analyst, some of Sallie's favorite part of the podcast. What polls do we have today?
01:52 Maricella: The first question that we have is, "What is the number one thing we should do to achieve gender equality in business?" 32% of our members say it's "Getting more women to positions of leadership." 19% of them say, "Having the courageous conversations and calling out inequality," which I know is one of the things Sallie is really passionate about.
02:14 KW: Absolutely.
02:14 Maricella: She always talks about those courageous conversations.
02:16 KW: Yes she does.
02:18 Maricella: 15% say, "Lead by example and be role models." 13% say "Create more inclusive or flexible cultures." And 11% say "Give back to the younger generations of women coming up the ranks." It's very interesting because one of the least chosen responses was something that we don't really do at Ellevate that much, but it's something people ask us about a lot. And it's political advocacy. Only 6% chose that response.
02:48 KW: So only 6% of respondents believe that political advocacy is the number one thing we should do to achieve gender equality in business.
02:56 Maricella: Yup.
02:57 KW: So it's really from within the companies and having those conversations and leading by example, creating more inclusive cultures and getting more women coming up the ranks. So, it's things that we can all do and really have a, directly have an impact on.
03:15 Maricella: Honestly, this really talks about our community which are women who want to take their lives, their careers in their own hands. And they do.
03:24 KW: So, what if I wanted to join our community, is there something I should know about this month?
03:28 Maricella: [chuckle] You totally should. And this is the perfect podcast to say this, because it's the one with Sallie and yourself. And it's only three more days for our September promo to expire. So you have three more days to join Ellevate with 20% off membership using the discount code, Invest in Yourself.
03:49 KW: So check it out, visit us at ellevatenetwork.com, it's a great website, tons of content, lots of interesting information. Sign up for the Morning Boost or daily newsletter. But really, join our community.
04:02 Maricella: To quote Sallie, "Networking is the number one unwritten rule of success in business."
04:06 KW: Yes it is.
04:07 Maricella: Yes it is.
04:08 KW: Alright. So on to Sallie. You wanna get ready for this one. It's a great podcast. We're really excited about it. And it's number 25. Our 25th podcast. Woo!
04:19 Maricella: Yay!
04:19 KW: So, to celebrate that, we hope you will go rate it, review it, tell your friends, share it on social media, give us lots of love 'cause we love doing this every day. And we're really excited to bring it to you and to hear from you. So also, feel free to tweet at us and tell us what you love about the podcast, we wanna know.
04:39 Maricella: Yeah. Twitter ellevatentwk.
04:42 KW: Thanks Maricela.
04:42 Maricella: Thanks Kristy.
05:00 KW: This is Sallie. Wow. You're doing a lot right now. Obviously always, always doing a lot. So one quick question about that, how do you manage it all?
05:09 Sallie Krawcheck: I don't, is the answer. I really don't kill myself over the whole work-life balance thing. I do the things I want to do and I don't clean the house.
05:24 KW: I like that advice. That's good advice.
05:25 SK: I don't cook dinner every night. I don't go out for drinks with people who I sort of know but don't really want to. So there's a lot of 'I don't'. And I also have, I'm at a time of my life where my kids are away at college. So I can do more stuff. It's amazing after having been at the stage you're in where you've got three small kids, all at home. Obviously, be sort of weird to send them to college so early.
05:57 KW: I'm gonna think about it.
05:58 SK: To be an empty nester. And it's amazing because I feel and I talk to my friends about this. I feel like for years and years, I was fighting with one arm or two arms tied behind my back, and when the kids are gone, all of a sudden, you can have the Ellevate network and you can found Ellevest and you can have a glass of wine with your husband on occasion, it's amazing what opens up at a time when we're actually not particularly old. It's not... You're sitting across from me, I'm not 80 at this stage, and I've got tremendous amounts of energy.
06:28 KW: A very stunning looking 25.
06:32 SK: Okay, Kristy.
06:33 KW: But I was in a conversation the other day, and the person... We were talking about time management and she said, "No is a sentence", and oftentimes you can get sidetracked by feeling you have to say yes to people all the time, say yes to the drink invitations, say yes to the meetings, say yes to everything, and then that takes up so much time.
06:50 SK: Well, and particularly if you're starting businesses, or working as an entrepreneur, it is just as important what you say no to as what you say yes to, because you can get sidetracked very quickly. And you know, we've been through this with the network where we'll be talking to potential corporate partner, and for them, months will pass, it's no big deal, but if you're the startup and months pass, you can be running out of cash flow, you can be out of business. And so, what... I've written about and thought about when it comes to those situations, a lot of times, a fast no can be actually even better than a slow yes.
07:24 KW: Yes. Yes. Agreed. So, let's dig into a little bit all the things that you're doing, so it's quite a bit, one, and something that's very exciting, you have a book coming out.
07:35 SK: I do have a book [chuckle] coming out, I know, called 'Own It' which will be out at the end of January of next year, which is a lot about women in business. I think we're at such an interesting time in business, part of what the book will talk about is that so much of the advice for women in business, so much of it's so great, but so much of it really is for business as it exists today. How do you get ahead in the traditional four walls equal box business? How do you ask for the raise in that environment? How do you get the promotion in that environment?
08:20 SK: And the truth is that business is changing and it's changing really rapidly, even within a company. Businesses are changing such that we know more, such that there's more information, such that data is driving our decisions in a way that it never has. And the opportunity to start businesses is unlike anything in the, really history of the world, where the cost of starting businesses are coming down so much, such that women are starting businesses in increasing numbers, and actually starting business at two times the rate of men. And so, what I've been thinking through and what I try to talk about in the book with liberally... Liberal lashings of my own experience and awkward stories and such is, "What is it gonna take to get ahead in this new environment, the environment of tomorrow?" And the underlying perspective is, so many of the skills that we women bring to the party become even more valuable in that environment. So I'm very optimistic.
09:18 KW: I love that you are always optimistic. [chuckle] I mean that's important. We can talk about the problems all day long, but what's the future look like and how is that a positive and how can we leverage change and information to drive more change...
09:33 SK: And make the world a better place.
09:34 KW: Yep.
09:35 SK: Part of why I'm so excited and passionate about everything I'm doing right now is, darn it, those money gaps do exist. Whether it's the gender achievement gap, not enough women on boards, not enough women in senior leaderships at traditional companies. Whether it's the gender funding gap, even though the cost of funding businesses have come down, we're not getting them funded to the same extent that men do. The gender pay gap, we're not getting paid at the same rate men are on average. The gender investing gap, we're not investing the same extent that men are. I'm really spending time thinking through each of these, and if we can even make dents in there... It sucks that they're there, it's so frustrating, but it's all upside. And it's upside if and as and when we make it have an impact on them, it's good for the women, but what we don't talk enough about is it's good for families, it's good for society. Yeah, I know there's some angry guys out there who will hear this and then rage at me on Twitter because for some reason, they think closing the gender pay gap hurts them. It doesn't, it grows the economy, it's a great thing, it closes the retirement savings gap, it helps our families, it's all good, but I'll still get tweeted at, I promise you.
10:47 KW: So, how do women as business leaders, women as business owners, how are they different than men as business leaders and owners?
10:54 SK: Well, look, that question always feels weird because, "No, let's not talk about the gender differences, and let's all be the same." The truth is, that the research indicates that there is something that we bring to the party, in that, when we are, when leadership teams are diverse, boards are diverse, gender diversity, companies have higher returns on equity, not by a little, by big chunks, lower risk, greater innovation, greater customer focus, greater employee engagement on any range of metrics, that the power of diversity is so great that gender diverse and diverse teams outperform smarter teams. So, something happens. And you and I can sit here and go through the research, and it shows that women tend to be more risk aware than men do. Gee, that might've been a good thing on Wall Street where I used to work, we'll leave that there, to sit there for a second.
11:56 SK: Women tend to be, and we know this, more relationship focused than gentlemen do. Women tend to take a longer term perspective on business, and these we intuitively know but the research also indicates. One that surprised me, Kristy, is that women tend to manage complexity better. That one shocked me, because I grew up in a household in which my brother was always building the model ships and the ship in the glass, and I always thought of him as being into all kinds of detail. But it turns out that women tend to bring both halves of their brain to problems and men tend to bring the half of the brain that's needed to the problem, such that men tend to make more efficient decisions, quicker decisions and women tend to make more effective decisions, more holistic decisions. It just takes us a little bit longer.
12:49 KW: That's interesting. I see it, I mean, if you go back into women's role in the house and in the workplace and where you're often wearing multiple hats and managing many...
12:58 SK: Yeah, you juggle.
13:00 KW: Many things, you need to be able to look at the big picture and then slot everything in and manage everything. And, yeah, maybe not make the best decisions [chuckle] but you're able to do it all.
13:10 SK: But instead our society makes fun of us for it, I mean, they're so, "She's so cute. Look at her taking all that time to order dinner." Right? "Look at her taking all that time to make a decision about what to wear." So we take this holistic perspective and somehow over time our society makes it, "Oh, she's so cute."
13:30 KW: Yeah.
13:30 SK: Yeah.
13:30 KW: Can you share... Some of our listeners may not know about your background which is incredibly impressive and just share a little bit about [chuckle] your history.
13:39 SK: I've been around, that's for sure. So, I grew up in Charleston, South Carolina. I went to the University of North Carolina. I moved to New York City out of college because my father forbid me to. I was a journalism major so I immediately went to Wall Street, which obviously makes no sense. But I did it because those were the jobs that were available at the time. It was sort of my, right out of college generations [14:06] ____ technology industry. I went through my 20s, hated every professional minute of it in investment banking. Business school, investment banking again, 'cause I couldn't find another job. And then for our listeners who are younger, who are thinking, "Oh, I'm in my 20s. I don't know what I'm gonna do." At the age of 29 years and 11 months, when I had a baby and I was actually a stay-at-home mom, having put Wall Street in my rear-view mirror because I didn't like investment banking, had the insight that I wanted to be, as so many young women do, an equity research analyst.
14:45 KW: Yes.
14:45 SK: Amazing, right? You probably went through that too.
14:48 KW: That's a career passion. Me too, I get it.
14:50 SK: I loved it. I got... Once I decided it, I got rejected by about 13, 14 different firms, one of whom said, "We're not gonna give you an offer because you're a young mother." Finally, got a job offer at Sanford Bernstein and had a blast. So I was an equity research analyst, I was analyzing companies, was fortunate enough to become... Or, I don't know why I'm being a woman here, driven enough, good enough at my job that I became Director of Research, became CEO of the company. Had a fascinating run there because I was running the business in the run up to the NASDAQ market crash in the early 2000s. At the time the Wall Street firms typically were in the business of research and were in the business of investment banking. So many of the Wall Street firms then were in both the equity research business, the investment banking business, we won't drag you through the detail, but suffice to say there was two businesses were in conflict with each other. If you were doing a great job for a client in one, you were not doing a great job for a client in the other.
15:58 SK: I took us out at Bernstein of one of the businesses, the banking business, was roundly criticized for it. Up until then New York attorney general, Eliot Spitzer, found out that people had been taking advantage of their clients. So our business exploded at the time and, believe it or not, I went from running little old Sandford Bernstein to being given the opportunity to run Smith Barney as CEO. So I went from running 386 people on a Tuesday to something like 30,000 on a Wednesday, because I was invited to turn that business around. It had gotten into trouble in the scandal. I was Chief Financial Officer of Citigroup, ran also the Citi Private Bank along with Smith Barney, and was fired from that job in the downturn... By the way, did you just want no details, how are we doing? [laughter]
16:46 KW: No. It's so incredibly fascinating, I love... Every time I hear it, I love it. I'm sitting here fiercely writing notes. I've so many questions for you.
16:54 SK: So, then I got fired in 2008, because in the crisis I was the only one to work to return client funds. We had sold products to our clients that we thought were low risk, they ended up being high risk. I advocated to my new boss to return funds. He said, "No." The board sided with me and then he fired me. And then I ran Merrill Lynch, which had gone through some issues in the crisis and needed a turning around, when Bank of America bought them. And I was there for a couple of years and was re-orged out of that. Which finally got me to my next career as an entrepreneur. So I tell people I'm trying to have every business experience it's possible to have. So, a handful of years ago, I bought what was then 85 Broads and is now Ellevate Network. And a handful of months ago, launched a separate business, Ellevest, which is a digital investment platform for women. What do those two have to do with each other? Well, it's all about closing those gender money gaps that you and I talked about earlier. So that is as condensed as I could possibly make it as the story of my career.
18:07 KW: So I have so many questions. Criticism. When you are standing up for yourself and the values that you believe, how do you then deal with the naysayers?
18:17 SK: It is so interesting you asked that question because my daughter and I have been talking about this a lot. She's a young lady, and she is struggling with the issue of wanting to be liked by everybody. And I have had long conversations about the fact that if you state any opinion at all, you are putting yourself up for some kind of criticism. And that particularly, if you take a stance on something, and most particularly a stance that is not what the crowd is doing, you can guarantee that you will be criticized. And is it worse as a woman? It may be worse as a woman. I am watching Hillary Clinton make a speech the other day, and the Twitter trolls are talking about how shrill she's being. And I'm saying, this is so interesting, you freaking expert! Here she is...
19:16 KW: Not on, "This point is wrong," it's, "Her voice sounds shrill."
19:19 SK: Running for President, out there in the arena. Forget about your politics. This woman is working incredibly hard, trying to really accomplish something, and you are talking about the shrillness of her voice. Who gave you a freaking PhD in vocal gymnastics, or whatever the heck it is? The conversations that I've had with my daughter are, "If you do anything important, if you do anything, you are likely to be criticized. And you have to just get over it. Because you can live a life where everybody likes you, or you can live a life where you get criticized. And the one that can be much more interesting is the one where you get criticized." So do I have feelings? I've got feelings. Do you read something sometimes and say, "Oh, that hurts." On the other hand, who cares?
20:12 KW: So you have to have a thick skin.
20:15 SK: Grow one. And then wine, particularly chardonnay, I find, helps.
20:22 KW: Yes. Wine, that always works.
20:23 SK: Yeah. Well. Not always, but if you drink enough of it [chuckle] it can really dull the edges of it.
20:26 KW: So, you're mentioning your daughter, who's fantastic.
20:28 SK: Thank you.
20:30 KW: I think she's really great.
20:31 SK: I do to. I really like her.
20:32 KW: And she thinks I'm really great.
20:33 SK: I know, she think's you're great.
20:34 KW: So, I think she's especially great, of course.
20:36 SK: I got... There you go.
20:38 KW: But during all this time of change, being, you said, home with a newborn, which was your son, through to driving large corporations, and then back to being an entrepreneur and really devoting so much of yourself to Ellevate and Ellevest and your efforts now, what impact did that have on your family, and how did you keep that relationship with your kids during that time?
21:02 SK: So, it's interesting 'cause we all have this guilt, or we're all told we should have guilt. And a handful of weeks ago I read an article that said this view that working mothers are spending so much less time with their children is based on decades old, misinterpreted, bad science.
21:22 KW: I read that too. It was a good article.
21:25 SK: I loved it. I loved it. And it felt right. And then actually... They didn't even go for these quality time versus... She said it's more time. And when I actually think about my family as a mother versus my family as a daughter, my mother stayed at home with us. We were typically out in the yard and she was inside cleaning the house or she was inside cooking, or, as was the way it happened in the day, sitting on the beach tanning while we were in the water. And so I don't have this sense of... I had all this one-on-one time with my mother. And, by the way, there were four of us. Age difference oldest to youngest three years and 11 months, no twins. So someone was always falling down or hurting themselves. I just don't have a recollection of hours and hours of her reading to me. And that is in no way, please, nobody, nobody interpret this as criticism. And she was running the household.
22:22 SK: And so I think about today those hours that I have and had with my kids, it feels like more. So that's what the research says. I think I intuitively recognized it at some point that I felt like the kids were getting what they needed from me and, really importantly, I was just so much happier working than I was staying at home, as much as I love them. So I got over the guilt. I got over it early. I also recognize that this was a first world problem, that my work-life balance... So many mothers, the vast majority of mothers around the world don't have the luxury of that choice. And so for me it was, I celebrated the fact that I even could think about that, that I had the luxury of thinking about that versus otherwise. So I didn't let it eat away at me.
23:15 KW: Are your kids proud of you?
23:16 SK: I think they are. And I'm proud of them. I'm super proud of them. I'm really pleased to see that they're both hard workers and the question I always pose to myself as a mother, the primary question was never work-life balance. The primary question, which I've only recently articulated to myself, is, "If my kids could see me now, and see what I am doing, would they be proud?" Now, I can ask this question with a certain sharpness having gone through the financial crisis, and having made some decisions that were controversial at the time, returning client funds. "What would I tell my kids about this?" And I would like to be able to tell my kids, and I can tell my kids, I took a decision that I thought was so important, cost us a lot of money as a family, personally. I did this because I thought it was the right thing to do. And setting that as an example for my kids is very important to me. And let's face it, they Google all of us. And so, I've always asked myself, if they Google me, what will they see? And will they be proud, or not?
24:24 KW: Absolutely. So, another question for you around sponsorship. You have this amazing career in a very fast trajectory.
24:35 SK: Yeah. When it was slow, it was slow. When it was fast, it was fast. You're exactly right about that.
24:40 KW: I don't wanna make it not about you because, clearly, [chuckle] you've worked hard, and you're smart, and I know you, and you are, but did you get any help along the way?
24:48 SK: Oh! You can't do without help. You have to work hard, you have to be lucky, and you have to get help. Now, I was waiting for you to say, "Have you had any female mentors along the way?", and the answer's, "Not many." Because of the career path that I took on Wall Street, and when I did it, I was very quickly the most senior woman. I mean, I was, Kristy, something at the age of 24 or 25, the senior woman in investment banking at Solomon Brothers in London. So, 24, 25, it was crazy. And there were several men in the course of my career, who were older than I was, some by several, a couple or several decades, who mentored, sponsored me, almost as a type of father figure. And I've heard this from any number of women who are my contemporaries, that there was someone, often it was one person, who took a real interest in them, where at a different stage in their career, they weren't competing, and brought them along. And I may do a study of it at some point. There was a point at which amongst my group of female working friends, nine out of 10 of us had had someone who was that person, that person who helped us along.
26:09 KW: Interesting. So you're an entrepreneur now. Had you ever thought you would have that title or that identity?
26:17 SK: Hell, no!
26:20 KW: But now that you are an entrepreneur, are you like, "What? How did I not think about this before?"
26:27 SK: Did I ever think I would be one? No. Do I now sit back and say, "How come I didn't find this magical world before?" No. I did it not because I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I did it because I built, I grew a passion around these topics, around closing these gender money gaps. And when I then said, "Okay, now I'm passionate about this, what can I do about it?" So it wasn't, "I wanna be one, and now, look at... This is so cool." It's, "I wanna help solve a problem, and this is the way to do it." I've told the story when I thought of Ellevest. In part, Kristy, because we have the Ellevate network, and I was busy, and engaged, and happy, and then, the gender investing gap started to become clear to me. And I thought, "Well, I'm not gonna do this. I can't do this." It's before you were as good as your job, as you are today. Before I said, "I can let Kristy spend all the... Step Kristy up a few notches for Ellevate network, and I can go work on some other things as well."
27:31 SK: So before that, so I went out to some of the big banks, and said, "Look, there's this gender investing gap. And I've done some research on women in investing, and here's why it exists, and here's what I think the approach is to closing it. And by the way, the market is significant 'cause women have $5 trillion of investable assets, and 90% manage their money on their own at some point in their lives. And I'm happy to consult with you. I'll do it for free. Let's go after this." And one of the CEOs said to me, in response, after he paused and looked off into the middle distance, in a thoughtful, dramatic and masculine way, he turned back to me, and he said, "But don't their husbands manage their money for them, Sallie?" To which I [chuckle] just said, "90% manage their money on their own." And that's when I thought, "Okay, I have to have this Kristy lady step up on the network, and also, begin to work on the gender investing gap because if not me, I don't know who else is gonna do it."
28:34 KW: So what does success look like for you, with Ellevest?
28:38 SK: Well, what I'm excited about is that if you now Google "gender investing gap," there are actually, things come up. And so, if the only thing we do is bring attention around this issue that men invest to a greater degree than women do, that it costs women thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, some women, millions over the course of their career, for some women it's more expensive than the gender pay gap, and it's not our fault. This idea that math is for boys, investing is for men, not for us women, we just need more hand holding. We are just too risk averse. It's just because of our uteruses just being tucked in there below our bellies, just is too risky, we just can't possibly. If we can get...
29:25 KW: But let the boys handle the money, Sallie...
29:26 SK: Oh, well, it's just... And math is hard, Kristy, for goodness sake.
29:28 KW: I know. It is. It is really hard.
29:30 SK: If we can break through those unbelievably frustrating, but still very well-accepted myths, make women aware of it... I don't care, go XYZ, go invest over there. But that will be success, to me.
29:43 KW: A few minutes ago, you were talking about a frustrating moment, where you are talking to a potential investor about Ellevest, and why it's needed, and he didn't get it. I imagine you had many conversations. Imagine many of our listeners who're to raise money and engage potential investors that are having some frustrating conversations, advice.
30:07 SK: Yeah, it's hard. It's hard. I always hate to give this advice because you hate to tell women they have to change. So I'd say a couple of things. In a pitch and I've done some small amount of angel investing, I'm not anymore because my whole life is being poured into these businesses. But I did find that the gentlemen would come in and they were gonna disrupt, innovate, change the world and, boy, they came in with confidence and swagger. Women would often come in and the first question was, "Is this still a good time?" And women would talk through all the risks. And they were never gonna change the world, they were going to build a business. Now the research has shown that women-owned businesses tend to be more successful than businesses that do not have women. The advice I'd say to women is, "You belong in that room, don't ask that permission, and talk about the upside. And remember how compelling confidence is." In fact confidence is so compelling that after it has been proven that someone's confidence in themself is misplaced, we're still drawn to it.
31:22 KW: So when you don't have confidence, how do you fake it?
31:26 SK: Fake it, just do it.
31:27 KW: Just fake it?
31:27 SK: Yeah. Just talk to yourself in the mirror, do your Amy Cuddy power pose and get in there. Though, the thing I always tell my kids and this is a little more for speeches is just own it. Just you deserve to be on that stage, just take up the stage and slow it down. The biggest sign of nervousness is you talk too quickly. Slow it down. Nothing's more powerful in silence.
31:53 KW: So you just said, "Own it," and we're getting back.
31:55 SK: Oh right. Yay! The book.
31:58 KW: Own it, right? Own your life? Own your career?
32:00 SK: Did I say that?
32:01 KW: You did say it.
32:01 SK: I guess I'm going to start [32:01] ____ probably saying it a lot in a corny way from January.
32:05 KW: No but I think it...
32:06 SK: #ownit.
32:07 KW: It embodies so much. Own you career. Own your confidence. Own the trajectory.
32:12 SK: Oh yeah. Own your business.
32:13 KW: Own the conversation. We are in a new era for women. The one that's been way too long in coming. But business is changing, the world is changing, and we are just gang busters again for...
32:29 SK: I love this. I had a conversation the other day. I hope I can semi-replicate it 'cause it was so exciting and we were talking about how everyone talks about empowering women. And somebody turned and said, "I don't need to be empowered. I have power. I just need to unleash it." And there is something about empowering that, "I don't need you to empower me, buddy. I got this."
32:52 KW: Alright well, thanks Sallie. Thanks so much for joining us today. This was great.
32:55 SK: Alright. Thanks for having me.
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