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Reinventing Work for Women, with Annie Dean and Anna Auerbach

Reinventing Work for Women, with Annie Dean and Anna Auerbach

Episode 26: Reinventing Work for Women, with Annie Dean and Anna Auerbach

Annie Dean and Anna Auerbach believe the leadership pipeline is broken and that having flexible work opportunities for ambitious women would be the way to fix it. After both of their high achieving careers (Annie is a lawyer and Anna a consultant who then worked in the nonprofit sector) they started their own company, Werk, with the aim of helping women stay in the workforce and not opt-out when they become mothers. In this episode, Annie and Anna share their mission, why we need to take the term “mommy track” out of commission, why guilt and shame should not be a part of flexible work arrangements and their advice for new and aspiring entrepreneurs.

Episode Transcript


00:00 Rachel Griesinger: Welcome to the Ellevate Podcast. Conversations with women changing the face of business. And now your host, Kristy Wallace.


00:13 Kristy Wallace: Hello and welcome to the Ellevate Podcast. This is Kristy Wallace, and I'm joined today by Maricella Herrera. Hi, Maricella.

00:21 Maricella Herrera: Hi, Kristy. Hi, everyone.

00:23 KW: So, really excited today. We are going to be talking to Annie and Anna from Werk, that's W-E-R-K. And they're doing some great things about reinventing work for women, flexible jobs, ambitious careers, so some really fantastic insights there. And they're just fun to chat with anyway.

00:42 MH: Yeah, they're pretty cool.

00:44 KW: Yeah, I have to say, I'm gonna do my little aside right here and get a little teary-eyed, but I have met so many incredible, inspirational women on the podcast. And many of you have come up to me or written to me about the stories and the women that have really touched you. And I often hear, "How did these guests do at all? They're amazing. I wish I could be like them." And I think it's important to note that you are, all of you, are like the women on this podcast. You are starting companies. You are changing the world. You are moms, and professionals, and just inspirational women in your own right. So rock on, keep it up. Keep listening to the podcast and keep staying in touch with us 'cause we really love to hear what your favorite episodes are, what you wanna hear about, and we just love hearing from you anyway. So thanks so much, and now we want to talk about some stats. What are we gonna talk about today?

01:48 MH: Wait, before we go into the stats, I was listening to what you were saying about how we love to hear from people who think the podcast is great, and tune in and please rate and review it. We have a tweet here from @sambagal who says, "Great Ellevate pod this week with host Kristy Cisco and Ellevate network founder, Sallie Krawcheck." Also share your thoughts via Twitter. Our hashtag for the podcast is Ellevatepod, and our handle is ellevatentwk.

02:17 KW: Yeah, Cisco, my maiden name; Wallace, married name. I put off changing it for way too long and now it will forever be Cisco in the Twitter sphere.

02:27 MH: Cisco is a good name though.

02:29 KW: I know. I know, and I made the decision. I felt confident in the Wallace name, but I will never give up Cisco 'cause it is a great name.

02:37 MH: Cool.

02:38 KW: Yeah.

02:38 MH: So, going into the stats this week, since we did have Annie and Anna, what we asked our Ellevate community this week is, "What does work place flexibility mean to you?" For half of them it's working remotely or virtually, so it's from where you work. 32% say it's deciding their own hours, so more of the times that you work. 7% say it's having family-friendly company policies, such as parental and family leave. And 4% say it's being my own boss, so more of that entrepreneurial mindset. Then we have a few people who said unlimited vacation or working part time or having child care options available, but the majority is where you work and what times of the day you work at.

03:31 KW: Interesting. Yeah, it's boundaries, which is hard working remotely, because oftentimes it never ends. But I think having that flexibility is key. Personally, I love the days I work from home and I get so much done.

03:49 MH: It's interesting because...

03:50 KW: But, of course, I miss you.

03:52 MH: I know, but you changed tables, so I don't believe you.


04:00 KW: Actions speak louder than words.


04:02 MH: But honestly, it's interesting because as the workplace has changed and you have these open spaces as the ones we work in currently, it's sometimes easier to just be at home and very focused and get some stuff done, than to be in a room with a lot of people.

04:18 KW: Absolutely. All right, so we're gonna get to Annie and Anna now. As Maricella said, if you love this podcast and all the rest, please rate, review, and share. It means so much to us, and thank you for listening.


04:46 KW: We just wanted to start, get a little background on the two of you. Annie, tell us a little bit about yourself. What's led you to this place today?

04:54 Annie Dean: Hi everyone. So, for six years I was in big law representing institutional lenders in billions of dollars of transactions, secured by real estate. And it was a really exciting place for me to be, because law was an opportunity for me to really enter a very ambitious, hardworking career track. And I worked as hard as I could at it. So, I went to my first firm, and I used to joke because I would say, "What women's movement?" Everyone listened to me, the men and the women, I was paid fairly, all of my ideas were heard, and I got the best advancement track work. But then when I was 27 years old and I was a third year associate, I was the top in my class. And ultimately, I announced that I was pregnant, and my entire experience changed.

05:43 AD: When I came back from having my son, my work streams were gone. I felt like everybody at work was unsupportive of me and no longer respected me. And as somebody who had always put their career first, and felt that her future was in her career, it was a really traumatizing time for my confidence. Ultimately, I left and I found a much nicer firm who supported me in having a second child, but it became an obsession of mine to think about what had happened. Was it something that was my fault or was it something that was the fault of the leadership at that particular firm? Or was it an institutional problem that had a solution? And so, when I met Anna, I knew that we had an opportunity to solve this problem in a really exciting way.

06:29 KW: And so, I just wanna say I love that you're talking about this. I think that there's many topics pertaining to women that we tend to internalize and we feel, "Maybe I did something wrong," and I just, "I don't know what to say or who to tell." And it's just about the awareness, like shared stories, shared experiences that then help other women to maybe say, "Okay, wait a minute. This isn't the norm. This isn't the right situation." Or, "Wow! I didn't realize I do work for a great company that's super supportive." But until we really talk about it and raise awareness about it and share stories, then you don't know.

07:10 AD: Right, and it's interesting that you say that because I remember very viscerally sitting in my office chair and every day was a struggle for me. I was breast pumping at my desk. I felt like all of my time was wasted. I felt like no matter how hard I worked I could not make an impact on the level of work that I had to do and I could not make an impact at home. So, I felt just generally useless. And I remember thinking about my own mother who was a stay-at-home mother and thinking, "Well, it must've always been this hard." Women must've always gone through this. And then I realized that I was living a situation that was really particularized to this time and that my future was not settled.

07:53 AD: I could make a new path for myself and that women have not always been struggling in this... Women have always struggled and women have always been pioneering and led this movement through many different iterations and accomplished amazing things, but in terms of having to work 16 hours a day at a desk, never seeing your child, coming home at 1:00 in the morning to a screaming, sleep-training infant, staying up until 5:00 in the morning, finally getting two hours of sleep, breastfeeding on top of it, and being responsible for achievement in a high-pressure environment, that's a story thats happening right now and it doesn't need to happen that way.

08:32 KW: Agreed, and I'm having heart palpitations right now just thinking about that situation, 'cause wow. I mean, that's... Wow. So, Anna...


08:42 Anna Auerbach: I don't know how to follow that.

08:43 KW: Yeah, that's a hard act to follow. What's your story?

08:48 AA: So, I actually moved to the US as an immigrant from the former Soviet Union when I was six years old, and so as many immigrants, what that shapes in you is a desire to really work hard, achieve a lot, a really high level of scrappiness. And so from a young age, I always tried to get the best grades, get the best jobs. I worked at McKinsey & Company straight out of undergrad and then really wanted to do something that made a difference, because I was also, as an immigrant, incredibly grateful for the opportunities that were given to us. We were brought to the US and were helped by a charity, and so that was a big drive in me is to give back, and so moved to nonprofit, went to Harvard Business School, committed to social enterprise and stayed in nonprofit and philanthropy for the last six years.

09:28 AA: But the common thread through all of it was I really wanted to make a difference and I always wanted to be a mom. My mom worked growing up the whole time and for me it was, there was no question that I was going to be a mom and there was gonna be no question that I was gonna be a mom that worked. And so I was the crazy person that in their Harvard Business School application as I wrote about how what matters to me most and why was raising a child that was a good citizen of the world. And so, I've been fascinated by this topic for a while and when I felt like I hit a plateau and also felt somewhat unsupported in my last job and trying to have flexibility and raise my child and be involved, I'd been stuck in this business idea probably for about a year before I connected with Annie and it's just hard to launch something by yourself and it's terrifying and I had it in my head that I wasn't an entrepreneur. I've no idea why I had that in my head. But I connected...

10:15 KW: It's an insane notion.


10:17 AA: I know, it's insane now because I think I finally found my calling in it all...

10:20 KW: Is it that the impostor syndrome?

10:21 AA: Right, it totally is.

10:22 KW: I don't belong here. I'm not an entrepreneur.

10:24 AA: Right, and it's, I guess, hindsight is 20/20, but you look at the cumulative effect of your experiences and the answer's obvious. But to everyone except you, and now that I'm doing this, side note my friends are like, "Of course you were going to be doing this." And to me it was not obvious at all, but we connected and started thinking about, "Well, what's really the problem?" And as Annie mentioned, I felt as though if I worked hard enough, I could achieve anything. And it might not be the most highest paying job or the highest title, but I could achieve what I put my mind to. But once you have a child, there's just not enough time and your priorities do change and not necessarily, in a great way actually. I think I'm a stronger person as I became a mother, but I suddenly felt like I was failing spectacularly at everything all at the same time, and the only thing that I came down to is the same answer Annie did which is it's not me, the system around me is broken and we have to fix it. Women are fixing this problem by themselves, as Annie talked about. We as women think we're super women. We wanna do it all by ourselves, but the systems are not set up for us.

11:24 KW: And so I've had three kids. The first one I was working in a job. Yeah, I couldn't envision how I would have a child and come back to that environment. I loved that environment as a childless person because it was my number one priority. But once your priority shifts, then you're like, "I don't know how to make this work. I'm not sure how to make that balance." And so with my first, I actually left the day I went into labor, I was like, "That's it. I'm out." And then my second was in a small little startup, and then my third I had here at Ellevate and it was fantastic experience and super supportive. And I mean, sure, I have a hand in developing our policies and the culture around that, but it's important. We had three women who all had babies in the same year as part of a small team. And you survive as a company, right? You all band together and make sure that that person has a great maternity leave and a great culture to come back to and so it's possible. And I know that's a lot of what you are working on at Werk, so tell us about Werk.

12:32 AD: So, we are really focused on this idea that the leadership pipeline is broken and we know that we've been trying to fix this for a while. Companies are putting major resources to trying to fix the leadership pipeline, trying to get more women to positions of leadership, but we think that they're thinking about it the wrong way, so we are approaching this problem at the point of opt-out. We don't ever want a woman to make a decision and say, "I either have to choose my career or I have to choose my child." We need to create an environment that is compatible for both and that equally rewards the ideas of ambitious career and caregiving because those are both high priorities for ourselves, and becoming who we really are and reaching our full potential, and also reaching the full potential of our companies and our society at large.

13:21 AA: And for companies, it's sort of an obvious value proposition as Annie talked about. There's so much conversation around women in leadership and women not falling out of the pipeline. I mean, you look at college graduates and women outnumber men, but then what happens when you look at the highest positions of leadership? What happens when you look 10, 15, 20 years down the line? Flexibility, and that's what Werk is based on, is easy. I mean, a lot of companies, first of all, have these policies already, so sometimes it's just a marketing problem, it's about getting them out there.

13:48 AA: The other point to this is reconsidering what would make your workforce most effective. By the time somebody has eight or 10 years of work experience, which is really often when they're having children and really this point of opt-out, as Annie talks about, they've earned their right to be autonomous workers. For some reason, we're still tied to FaceTime and to traditional office environments, but this is an easy solution for people who can be highly trusted and are high achieving. And then finally, I think this is a sort of self-perpetuating model. We're trying to normalize the conversation. There's research that says women are less effective at negotiating. I think Annie and I would like to think we're exceptions [chuckle] to that...

14:27 KW: We're all women with young children.

14:27 AA: But it is harder, it's harder for women to ask. And it's harder for them to advocate for themselves. And so, in a way, by leading with flexibility, we're normalizing and opening up that conversation.

14:36 AD: And so, the way that we propose solving it is by creating a marketplace of flexible work opportunities for ambitious women, and we want women to have the opportunity to build a career that is compatible with her ambition and with her life. And we talk a lot about what flexibility is. We like to think it's sustainable high performance. So, how do you create an environment for a woman where she can work at her highest level of potential, which is not only fulfilling for that woman, but has a huge competitive advantage from the company perspective? And how do you make that last over the long term in a sustainable fashion? And the only way that we can do that, in the context of mothers who have young children, is to create a flexible work environment for that woman that supports her in those truly critical years of caregiving. And, we focus on mothers because that's been our life experience and clearly, it's most acutely felt by that set, but it also affects people who are caregiving for parents or who might have a spouse who is ill. Caregiving is something that needs to be better valued in our society and we're trying to give a voice to that proposition.

15:46 KW: So what does a flexible work environment look like?

15:49 AA: Well, so it's interesting, most people jump straight to remote and that's not what we're talking about and also it's not gig economy. So, for us, gig economy is a tough thing for mothers that also have to pay for preschool and manage babysitters and all of that. Gig economy just doesn't work for moms because it's hard to manage. But for us, the flexible environment just means some basic things. So it could just be one or two days a week work from home, it could be just some flexible office hours and on flexible, all we mean is mom can leave at 5:00, spend a couple hours with her kids and then plug back in. And it's really just around the autonomy piece and doesn't have to be anything that's about remote or something that is a totally different structure.

16:31 AD: And we think all the time about what women bring to the table both as women and as mothers and we see that women have this very high level of executive function. And we think if you look at the other propositions, like asking women to cobble together freelance projects in a gig economy environment, that it's actually very disenfranchising to that woman and that it's unfair to ask her to be a micro-entrepreneur without benefits or without corporate support, in addition to trying to be a mother. We believe that women should have the ability to have normal roles in companies that support and advance them, and this is not groundbreaking. Again, women are going to keep having children and this is a very positive fact for the future of humanity, so let's support them.


17:14 KW: Yes, it is.

17:14 AD: Let's support them and let's give them the ability to do that fundamental task in the context of achievement, which is something that most us, or many, many of us, want very badly in our personal lives.

17:26 AA: Well, and to us it's, let's talk about it, right? I mean there's a whole movement about bringing your whole self to work and motherhood is an essential part of your whole self. I mean, people for some reason are embarrassed and scared to talk about the fact that they're mothers or that they're pregnant and obviously there's HR issues involved to some extent with these things. But beyond that, I think we should not be penalized for being mothers. There's obviously research that shows there's a fatherhood bonus and a motherhood penalty, but I think part of fixing that and normalizing that to us is being able to be proud that we're women and that we're mothers and that we actually can get more work done sometimes in less time and we're more efficient and more effective with how we manage our time and that's really, really important to us at work.

18:04 KW: So I'm gonna say two things, and would love your thoughts on it. So one, shame. I think that there's just, or at least I've felt, that there's shame. You leave at 5:00 and you feel shameful about it, right? You feel like you have to sneak out without anyone seeing because it's a bad thing. And I don't know why that is. I mean, you have to leave a meeting early to go pump. You have to stay home 'cause your child is sick. It's like all of these things that almost make you feel embarrassed or shameful about being a mother and a parent. And then the second is voice. We know and at Ellevate, we regularly poll our membership to get to hear their voice. What do they care about certain topics and issues? And we know, majority of our members said they feel that they do not have a say in company policies and cultures that pertains to women. So companies are creating here's the band-aid or here's what we think it's about, but they're not really engaging the voice of the workforce in that solution. And Anna, you've done lots of data and research. So, I wanna hear about your research and also what you think about the whole shaming aspect of...

19:12 AA: Oh my gosh, we have start with shame.

19:14 AD: We have too much to say in this.


19:14 AD: We could talk for two hours.


19:17 AA: I wanna jump in on shame too. No, you go ahead.


19:19 AD: One thing I love to tell our women who are trying to negotiate flexible schedules for themselves outside our platform even, inside and outside. I like to say, if you're leaving at 5:00, I know it feels uncomfortable but you are leaving that office for you and you're leaving that for your children and you're leaving it for every single woman that comes after you. So please leave and don't be afraid to do it. And the other thing that I think is really important is that we talk a lot about value in this business and the fact that when you create value, the way that we've created value traditionally is through very quantifiable metrics, like profit and time spent. We're not talking about a different type of value, that's less quantifiable. And we can't be afraid to recognize that we need to be protective of it. So one thing I think that's really important for women to remember when they are talking about motherhood in the context of this shaming environment, is that you can't be defensive. You have to take an offensive perspective and I think it's very difficult because the value that is contributed to your family by being present as a parent, both to your family and to you and to your community more largely, it's less quantifiable than the hours you spent at a desk. It's less quantifiable than the profit that was made this quarter and for that reason, it's become marginalized.

20:44 AD: And I like to talk about the tyranny of the quantifiable. When things are more quantifiable they're more easily measured and more easily valued. It's up to us, together, to create an environment where we place greater value on these less tangible qualities. So instead of saying, "Hey, I gotta run out at 5:00 because I'm running to my son's baseball game," just be less defensive about it. Just say, "I'm leaving at 5:00 and if you need me I'll be available by email. I expect to plug in back at 8:30. I have one major project on my desk, I expect that it will be done by Thursday. If you have any input prior to then we can speak at this time." It's just being very clear-cut in your communication and not opening that wedge to second guess you on what your values are, because your values are too difficult to defend in a lot of ways. So just be clear and offensive about what your intentions are and you don't need to give any backup.

21:45 AA: And I just wanna pick up on the shame idea. I think there's just this mommy lens on things and as soon as you have the mommy lens, it's almost like it's not as serious and not as credible and not as high achieving and it's just... We really just have to change some of the language around this and it's a broader feminist issue. But the whole mommy track, there's a reason why that sounds negative, I mean we just put this terrible label on things. But back to the idea in terms of policy, I think this statistic is not any secret but only 16% of companies in the US offer a paid maternity leave. And that's not necessarily something we're trying to solve today or ever but, who thought that made business sense? How is that good business sense for 84% of companies to offer no paid leave? And very likely these women are not gonna come back. They're not gonna feel loyalty to their employers if they have to advocate and cobble together money for babysitters and then somehow return to work probably too early for them anyway. So for me in terms of the policy piece, women are more represented in business than ever before but if you look at leadership it's still predominantly men, and so if you think about people who are creating the policies, I'm not saying there's... There's no negative intention but I think you have to have lived that felt experience and I think there's adjusted different felt experience being a woman.

22:56 AA: So for us, until there's more women represented in leadership, it's gonna be really hard for policy to change, but I think that's part of what we're getting to with work 'cause we want to catch women at or before opt-out. We don't want them to leave the workforce if they don't want to, and that way we keep women in the leadership track and that way we solve this problem of getting more women to the top.

23:17 KW: So getting a little personal, how did you guys meet?

23:19 AD: I have a son who's a year old and he was born last July and he was born with a set of medical issues that I didn't expect. And it was life-changing because your priorities come very sharply into view. And I had always been somebody who was very ambitious and career-focused and had big dreams and I realized at that point that I needed to spend my energy doing something that created the value that I needed to see in the world. Because frankly, it just wasn't worth it to leave my son for any other arrangement and I think a lot of people, medical issues or no medical issues feel that way. So I called all of my girlfriends and I said, "Look I wanna talk to the smartest women you know. I don't care what they're doing. I don't care what field they're in, but as long as they're willing to have a conversation with me, I know I can learn from them." And so very quickly I was introduced to Anna who is the smartest person in anyone's network.

24:14 AA: I'm blushing.


24:15 AA: For the people out there, you can't see it. I'm totally blushing.

24:18 AD: And we actually connected on a totally unrelated idea because I was very focused on fine arts and philanthropy consulting, which Anna had been doing. So we had an hour long conversation and just had a lot to talk about and at the end of the hour long call, she was like, "Oh, what are you really interested in besides this?" And I was like, "Well, I'm really passionate about women in business and women in work." And she said, "I've got this business idea I've been thinking about for about a year. Would you be interested?" And I was like, "Oh yeah, yeah," I tried to play it cool. I hung up the phone, went to my husband and said, "I'm so obsessed with this. I don't wanna be a freak, but do you think that she'll include me?" [chuckle] And so we had one casual subsequent conversation and a week later, we had a business plan, a financial model, a vision document, a social policy, we began recruiting high level advisors and I think that that's a testament to the fact that in Anna, I finally met somebody who had my same level of drive and energy and ambition and together we have really just been an unstoppable pair.

25:27 AA: And from my standpoint, I've had this idea I've kicked around with some girlfriends, but it was just too scary to start something by yourself and I was always... I'd spent a lot of my career in consulting. As a consultant, you're trained to poke holes in everything, as a lawyer actually also, Annie.


[overlapping conversation]

25:40 AD: [25:40] ____ of those.

25:41 AA: Yeah, exactly. And so I could always find the problems or why isn't this going to work? And I talked to Annie and I actually had a very mirror image of that same experience where I really had not shared this idea with anybody and suddenly I was like, "Oh, here's somebody that really gets it." I actually think there's something here and as Annie said, within a few months, we really were launching this pretty quickly and I think to us, one of the biggest dominoes that helped accelerate the process is we just cold emailed Anne-Marie Slaughter. I just figured what's the worst? She's gonna say no, she's not gonna answer her email. She answered us within 12 hours. We emailed her in the afternoon. I think by the time I woke up, we had that email. I was still in Vegas where I was for a couple of years. I think I had to do the call at 06:30 AM my time. I was so excited.

26:24 AD: Sitting in a car.

26:25 AA: Exactly. And she loved the idea, [chuckle] she loved it and she had great constructive feedback and really pushed our thinking, but that was the moment where I think we really knew we had something. Before that, we thought we had a great idea, now I thought we were really, really onto something.

26:37 AD: And that was a meeting that... Because I took that meeting in person being that it was in New York and it was the perfect mom story. I mean I had a... How old was my son? Three months old?

26:48 AA: Yes, that sounds right.

26:49 AD: So I had a three month old and a two and a half year old and for whatever reason, they kept me up all night, I mean all night. I would deal with one...

26:57 KW: As soon as they sense something's happening it's like...

27:00 AD: All bets are off and so I finally got the two and a half year old to sleep who was having a miserable time sleeping at that age range and then the babies woke up and then the toddler woke up and by the time 7:00 in the morning rolled around, I had had about 45 minutes of sleep and was so exhausted that I couldn't even drink coffee because my hands were shaking from pure exhaustion. And I was like I have to go sell our feminist idol on this company and we just had to go and perform and that's what moms do. We just rise to the occasion and despite challenging circumstances, we deliver.

27:35 AA: I think our kids do this to us and before every big meeting and before every big pitch. It's just a pattern. We're just ready for it now and it's okay, you're primed to perform.

27:44 KW: Yeah, my daughter was up for quite a bit last night and it's always what, my husband was like, "Why is she doing this?" I'm like, "I have no idea."


27:50 AA: It's like they know.

27:51 AD: Like 'cause I have meetings tomorrow, why else?

27:53 KW: She knows we're taping podcasts tomorrow, that's why. She senses it. So what advice do you have for any of our listeners that are looking to start their own business?

28:03 AA: I think it's just trying it. Looking around, doing your research first. I think that's the best thing that you can do is just make sure that you've done your homework, but once you commit, you just have to commit. I think there's so many things. If we had one foot in, one foot out, that we would've absolutely just stopped and so it's hard to commit. I think what's interesting is as an entrepreneur, particularly if you're raising venture capital funding, they're looking for you to do this full time. That's really not an option for a lot of people. There's a pretty big penalty for you not doing it full time, but that's not always financially possible or lifestyle-wise possible. But I think once you commit, honestly nothing can stop you. That's the biggest lesson I've learned so far.

28:45 AD: And I would say that if you have vision and you believe in that vision and you see a problem that you think you can solve and you believe in your heart that you can influence something to make that change and this could be making a change at the way your children's school looks or starting a business or influencing a policy at your existing company, if you believe in it, you're probably right. So listen to that voice and follow it and don't give up on it and I know a lot of people tell you that, but if the voice is there, it's there for a reason.

29:19 AA: I totally agree. And then the other thing Annie and I have done is we have no ego in this. We think we have a good idea. We love working on it, but more importantly we ask for help and we seek a board of advisors and just experts and great thinkers. We will never turn down a phone call and we've gathered amazing, amazing advice. And so I think as an advice, just have a lot of conversations and you never know where those conversations will take you. We've just had people come out of the woodwork trying to help us and it's been wonderful to have that.

29:48 AD: Right, and I couldn't be more of a testament to that statement which is have conversations because without seeking random conversations, I would not be at this table and I would not have transitioned my career into my dream career. And it just takes having the openness and the initiative to expand your horizons.

30:05 KW: Great. Well, thank you so much for joining us.

30:08 AA: Thanks so much.

30:08 AD: Thank you.


30:11 KW: Thanks so much for listening to Ellevate. If you like what you hear, help a girl out. Subscribe to the Ellevate Podcast on iTunes. Give us five stars and share your review. Also, don't forget to follow us on Twitter @ellevatentwk. That's Ellevate Network. And become a member. You can learn all about membership and all the great things that Ellevate Network is doing at our website, That's E-L-L-E-V-A-T-E And special thanks to our producer, Katharine Heller, she rocks. And to our voice-over artist, Rachel Griesinger. Thanks so much. And join us next week.



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