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The Importance of Mission and Purpose, with Heidi Hackemer

The Importance of Mission and Purpose, with Heidi Hackemer

Episode 33: The Importance of Mission and Purpose, with Heidi Hackemer

Heidi Hackemer is the founder of Wolf & Wilhelmine, a brand strategy company that helps CEOs find what their brands are, and what their place is in the world. She believes in the importance of having a clear mission that you care about to be able to attract talent and clients. Before W&W, Heidi had a high-powered corporate job, which wasn’t making her happy. So she decided to drive across the US in a truck. In this episode, Heidi shares her career journey, her take on personal brand (and it’s not what you think), the impact her travels have had on her, being an introvert, and more.

Episode Transcript

00:13 Kristy Wallace: Hello and welcome to the Ellevate Podcast. I'm super excited. Today we have Heidi Hackemer, who is the founder of Wolf & Wilhelmine and you're gonna hear all about that in a few minutes. And Maricella, I think you agree with me here, right? She's pretty fantastic.

00:30 Maricella Avila: I absolutely agree with you. She is great, has quite the story.

00:35 KW: She does. And I found her very inspirational because, she just goes with it. She wants something. She goes after it. She has reinvented herself quite a few times and I think something that's really important, that I know I personally don't always do, is she's listened to herself and her body when enough was enough. She took a break and reset and started new. That to me, I was just blown away.

01:04 MA: I know. She's fantastic. The way she has been able to infuse her authenticity and her personality and what she's learned for herself into her company is pretty amazing.

01:17 KW: Yeah, but first Maricella, let's talk about some polls, give me some data.

01:22 MA: So we asked our members: What drives you the most to push yourself in your career? 40% said feeling like what I do matters, so that mission. 17% said money. Huge divide. 15% said learning new things, 12% said knowing that people depend on me, both at home or on the job, and 11% said feeling appreciated.

01:50 KW: So I think that's really interesting and I'm gonna make some educated guesses here. That for me, personally, it's feeling like what I do matters, but I'm later in my career. That has not been the major driver in the past. It was getting ahead, being successful. So now I'm at a stage where I really want to do something that matters. Now, I'm gonna say then we've read about millennials who want to find meaning and purpose in their careers and find something that matters, and so I think what we have in that 40% that answered that way is this more experienced generation, like myself that are at the stage in their career they really want to find that meaning and purpose. And the millennial generation, and we're all looking for that purpose, we all want to have an impact.

02:41 MA: Yeah. Absolutely.

02:42 KW: Do you agree? Am I stretching it here?

02:45 MA: No, I agree. I'm just laughing 'cause you're making it seem like you're this old person.


02:51 KW: I feel old.

02:51 MA: We have on this side the really old people who care about it and the really young people and you're not.

02:56 KW: Stop laughing at me.

02:58 MA: But I wanna say though is also that, keep in mind who the answers are coming from. The Ellevate community is, in itself, extremely passionate about giving back, and about having a mission and finding that purpose. So I think the people who join our community have in a way that have self-selected to really be a part of that.

03:21 KW: Yeah.

03:21 MA: Heidi does talk about having to disconnect, having to go kind of be by herself and it's interesting. We all kind of have our own happy place and we asked our members how do they find a happy place during their day. 22% said they exercise, 14% said they cross a task of their to do list, 14% said they read an interesting book or article, 13% say they go for a walk, and 11% are on my camp, they have a glass of wine. Wine helps.

03:56 KW: You're forgetting... You missed the last one which is meditate. 9% said meditate...

04:01 MA: Yeah, I did miss that.

04:01 KW: And I'm bringing that up because I actually have been thinking a lot, being much more deliberate about finding my happy place everyday, and so I've recently got into meditating. You may not know, I actually... When I come in in the morning, I try to get here as early as I can and I go and pop in the phone booth and I meditate for 10 minutes. I have an app and I have a buddy because my sister-in-law Katy is doing it with me, so we text each other every day to keep us honest. And it's really helped, we've actually found we're both sleeping better and dealing with some stresses better. So I previously probably would've said wine and aspirationally would've said exercise, but I'm gonna go into meditation camp. It's been great.

04:49 MA: I love that. I didn't know that. That's great, which you probably didn't know this about me.

04:55 KW: Oh, I can't wait to hear.

04:57 MA: But all through my teenage years, I was sort of a Buddhist and meditated and went to Buddhist retreats 'cause my mom was very much into that, so I'm a Salvadorian Buddhist.

05:13 KW: So I will go to you now for guidance and advice.

05:17 MA: I don't recommend that but it's great. It's great that we have different happy places to find.

05:22 KW: Yeah, I agree. I totally agree. So we're getting to Heidi. Get excited everyone cause this is going to knock your socks off. And after you listen to this and you are like, "Oh my goodness, she's amazing, and that was a great interview." Tell your friends, share it, rate and review us, spread the word. Check out the Ellevate podcast, check out the website, follow us on social media, spread the love around. We certainly appreciate it, we appreciate you spending time with us each week, so thank you so much and here's Heidi.


06:09 KW: I was connected with you through Sallie Krawcheck, who called me after dinner with you one night and said, "I just met the most amazing woman and you need to meet her." So now I am meeting you and our first foray into our relationship is over the podcast, so this is gonna be fun.

06:27 Heidi Hackemer: Very modern.

06:27 KW: We're both learning a lot right now.

06:29 HH: Yes.

06:29 KW: And you're all hearing it live. So I wanna just start, tell me a little bit about yourself.

06:35 HH: Sure. I am the founder of a brand strategy shop called Wolf & Wilhelmine. It's about two and a half years old. We work with founders and CEOs and upper level management types to help them figure out what their brand essentially is about, what is its role in the world, who is it talking to, and how can it engage most powerfully with the world.

06:57 KW: Any type of company?

06:58 HH: We do tend to have strong mission and purpose brands and clients. A lot of times they haven't articulated it out very well and that's where we come in. We help them, we help founders that have amazing ideas about what they should be doing in the world and the type of impact they should be making, and we help framework that and give that a narrative so that they really understand how to move powerfully forward. And so their employees understand why they're working there, audiences understand why they should care about those companies, we help them get that core story tight and right and help them understand, "This is who you're talking to and this is what you should say." And then we help them figure out, "Okay, if this is what you're all about then this is how you need to go behave in the world and this is how you need to deal with retail or your social strategy or your communication strategy."

07:46 KW: So what is the first question that a founder should ask him or herself?

07:51 HH: What do you really care about? Like why are you really doing this? For me starting my own company it was because there was a lot of pain in the industry. So W&W was founded as an anecdote to the traditional pain in the marketing and advertising world and I was convinced that I could create a company that operated more humanely, having a more diverse workforce, that had better relationships with clients, because my belief is that brand strategy is actually really important to companies now. CEOs and founders have to know what they're all about and they have to know why they want people to rally around them because we're all competing with the Googles and the Facebooks of the world for talent.

08:32 HH: So if we don't have these amazing purposes, if we don't have an idea of impact, then why would the top talent come work for our companies as opposed to these other companies? And so what I've found in my own articulation of my own company as well as helping other founders with theirs, is that people want to know this what you give a shit about. And this is why it exists and what am I following? And I think if people can articulate that in a really powerful way and a really honest way, then it's quite easy for employees and organizations and consumers to follow you.

09:06 KW: That's like the trifecta, right?

09:07 HH: Mm-hmm.

09:07 KW: You need leadership that believes in it, you need employees that you value and that share in your beliefs, and consumers that recognize that you care about what they care about. And it's very hard to align all three and I think often times... And I look at this very much through the lens of gender diversity. But often times companies are hitting one maybe two, but it's never all three.

09:38 HH: And you have to get all three, and that's what we help companies do. We first help that founder say, "This is what it's all about", and then we help them figure out how do you articulate that out to internal and external audiences. And when you can get those three things jamming, it's amazing. We do a lot of work with Nike for example, so we do a lot of... Slightly different part of a practice but helping them figure out the future of a certain category. What's the future of basketball? Who's that consumer coming down the pipeline? How should Nike interact with future facing technologies and so we spend a lot times in the walls of HQ and Nike is a great example of that trifecta.

10:16 HH: Mark Parker knows what it's all about, every employee drinks the Kool-Aid in the best possible way, and all of us as an audience, we know what they're about. And it's a great example of when those three things click together how powerful a company can be in the world. These types of principles aren't just about companies, they're also about humans as well and as we construct our own personal brands, which I know is a little bit of a dirty topic. This idea of personal brand, but at the end of the day founders, and I'm finding it even myself, that we also have to our own stories in a way that the world can digest them as well. It doesn't mean it's about being fake. It's about understanding what you're all about and being able to be confident in expressing that to the world as well.

10:58 KW: So why do you think that personal brand is a dirty topic?


11:03 HH: Because if you say to somebody I'm working on my personal brand, like that's just not something that seems very cool to say to somebody. In fact it feels a little dirty.

11:13 KW: It's like the modern day shoe salesman.

11:17 HH: Yeah, exactly.

11:17 KW: Like, "I'm working on my pitch. My door to door pitch.


11:20 HH: Totally, and so it feels a little gross, but I think there is a reality to starting a company and hustling. And part of the hustle of starting a company especially... In my early days it wasn't that people were buying into our output. We didn't have any output in the beginning. There was me and there was this idea of "You're buying into Heidi and you're buying into what you think she can provide to you." And so I had to have a really good story around that and we're still small that I am the new business pipeline for my company and it's still a matter of like, "Look we have a lot of work now. So I'm very confident in our work now." But they still are buying into you because especially when you're working founder to founder, that founder wants to know that you're a good person and that you're interesting and that you're bringing value to the table and that there's almost an empathy between the two of you. 'Cause your companies are your babies. And we're helping these people with their babies. And so they have to trust me and they have to trust my crew and they have to trust our output.

12:20 KW: So, what did you do before Wolf & Wilhelmine? I'm sorry, is it Wolf & Whilhelmine?

12:26 HH: Okay. So for a branding person, I named my company the worst name in the world. So my grandmother's name is Wilhelmine and I always wanted to name a company after her, but it's also the name of a modeling agency. We hire very beautiful people.

12:40 KW: Of course. As you are.

12:41 HH: I'm kidding. So we put the "wolf" in front of it. So usually we're like, "It's W&W," and it's okay. It's totally fine.

12:46 KW: Okay, W&W. So what did you do before W&W?

12:49 HH: Before W&W, I lived in a truck for two years. I drove around America. So let me back up a little bit. Before that I had a very high powered corporate job, and I was flying all over the world and running huge teams. I was the head global...

13:05 KW: And it seemed really great until it wasn't?

13:06 HH: It was really great, and then...

13:09 KW: Yeah, you're like, "This isn't fun anymore."

13:09 HH: This voice popped into my head, "Buy a truck, drive around America." So a month later I had quit my job. I had packed up my apartment. I had subletted it. I bought an F-150, and I kitted out the whole thing and I just started to drive. And it was almost exactly five years ago that I did this. And I just bought a National Parks pass and I went from park to park and I slept in the truck. And I just put 30,000 miles on the truck in two years.

13:38 KW: Okay. So my first question and this one's [laughter] telling you a lot about me. I grew up in a big family, I have a twin sister. I never had my... I did not have my own... I don't think I have ever actually had my own room in my life. But were you not so scared? I would be terrified. I'm terrified at this right now that you slept in a truck.

13:57 HH: A lot of people say that. My dad was like, "You need to carry a gun with you." So I grew up in Wisconsin in the woods. Everyone had guns, you know what I mean? So he said, "You need to have a gun." No, I wasn't. And part of the reason that I did it was because... Or one thing I got really interested in. I was driving around during the Obama-Romney election, and I was fascinated by the fear that all my coastal friends had in the fact that I was going into the red states alone, and they were afraid of what was gonna happen to me. I was a little bit like, "I don't know how these people are gonna react to a New York chick driving around."

14:35 HH: And what I found was that the country absolutely embraced me in a way that was so profound. It really... It did two things. It upped my belief in people and it made me very angry at the media, because the media benefits from there being messages of divisiveness and the country pulling apart. And then you go to a town and you can see the person has a Republican bumper sticker, but that's the same person that wants to help you check your oil in the middle of the day. And I never felt unsafe. And, of course, I did things like I wasn't drinking on the road. I never got drunk. I definitely trusted my Spidey sense. If something didn't feel right, you drive away. But America's a really warm place and I think we've lost this ability to trust another person and to open our hearts to them and just be like, "I'm vulnerable. Can you help me?"

15:33 KW: Sure.

15:34 HH: And every time I did that, and I did it almost daily, I always was greeted back with warmth. And it was very heartening to me, and it also just made me so sad because you look at rhetoric and you look at what the media does but you sit with someone at a diner and it's fine. And I just I think we've lost something as a country.

15:53 KW: Tell me about someone you met when you were on the road.

15:56 HH: I've met some amazing people on the road. Let me tell you about a recent one. So I still road trip a lot and this last spring I road tripped... Well, now I started riding motorcycles. So I rode my motorcycle from LA to Florida, and then from Florida up to New York, so I did this L across the country. And in California at this random campground I met this woman named Effie and she was a grandmother and her daughter wasn't really into camping but her son-in-law and grandson were, so she would go camping with them. And I started talking to her at this campsite and she... In the middle, like five minutes in the conversation she said, "Can I hug you?" And I said, " Yeah, of course." So I gave her a hug, and she said about 12 times, she said, "I just want so many blessings to you." She said, "I'll be praying for you so many blessings." And then the next morning... It's hard to travel with food...

16:47 KW: Guardian angel.

16:48 HH: Oh she was such an angel. It's hard to travel with food on a motorcycle. It's whatever. And so she gave me breakfast and made sure I had water. And you just meet people like that and it's not that there was this any big huge, mega insight or crazy thing, but this idea of an embrace and also an embrace from the older women in the country. When I'm on my motorcycle, older women always give me the, you go girl. I always get that from older women. They're like, "That's awesome", and they're like, "Go. Like keep going, keep going." I hear that from older women all the time. They're just so excited to see a young woman, not that I'm young, but a younger woman doing it.

17:26 KW: After we had our son we traveled the world for a few months.

17:30 HH: Oh it's amazing.

17:31 KW: And for me it was during a time of just deep reflection cause I didn't know where I was going, and what I wanted to do, where I wanted to be. And seeing one just beautiful places and meeting different people, my perspective really changed because I realized it wasn't just about me. You see there's a greater world out there, which I think ties a lot into why I'm doing what I'm doing today. And there is a greater world, and there's something bigger than me, and how can I affect that? Can you talk about the impact your travels have had on you?

18:09 HH: Oh God yeah. My first four months I called the "great exorcism." It was bad. I slept for 12 to 16 hours a night because my body was so worn out and I probably cried every day, and like those big, heaping, sobbing cries and they would just hit. I'd be like in Walmart, I'd start crying. [chuckle] I was that crazy woman crying in Walmart. And so what it really allowed me to do was I completely stepped away from my identity. It was strange. It was a very strange period of time because I was at an age, I was about 30-years-old at the time where, I was heading towards peak career and everyone that I had grown up with in my industry whom I loved and my best friends were getting married, getting big promotions, big jobs, they were buying apartments and I was like living out of a truck I was brushing my teeth in gas station bathrooms. I was a true road rat and people would ask me, "What do you do?" And in the beginning I didn't know how to answer the question and I was very embarrassed that I didn't know how to answer the question so...

19:19 RG: Because it's your identity.

19:20 HH: It's your identity. So in the beginning I'd be like, "Well I used to do... I used to work for this big ad agency and I used to work on the Google account." Because I was trying so hard to feel this sense of validation and then after a while I realized how ridiculous the "used to" sounded and so I finally got comfortable saying, "I'm just hanging out and I'm just letting it come." But that took months to do that. And so it was this total just... I would say the road stripped me down. I mean it really stripped me down, and I realized that my soul was pretty much dead. I hadn't been taking care of my soul at all. I had completely disconnected from the fact that I'm an animal and nature exists and the road just gave me back sanity, it gave me a sense of space, and it really reconnected me with natural and universal rhythm. And that has absolutely powered forward in what I'm doing now with the company. I completely run my company based on those types of things.

20:20 KW: It's so interesting because it is your identity. We're so accustomed to being like, "Tell me about yourself?" "Well I am this title this company. I'm this... "

20:28 HH: "I am the founder of this... " yeah.

20:30 KW: And that's how you define yourself. And when you strip that away then who are we? And it kind of gets back to what you were saying earlier about believing in something. I am someone who cares about X. I am someone who is here to change Y. I am... Like who are you and what are you trying to do in the world?

20:50 HH: And it was funny because when you asked me like, "Tell me about yourself." I paused for a second 'cause I was like, "I want to say like, "I'm just Heidi and I just kind of exist and this is a thing I'm working on right now." But that's going to sound super pretentious so I just better say I'm the founder of this company."


21:08 KW: Because it's still how we define... Yeah.

21:09 HH: Because we are so conditioned by like, "Tell me about yourself." "This is the work I do." And if you'd said, "Tell me about yourself." I'd be like, "Well I had like crazy meditation this morning with my amethyst." Then you'd be like, "Okay, this woman's nuts."

21:22 KW: I wanted to ask you what do you do today to continue to stay centered and balanced and once you reach that point you don't... What you experience during your travels, you don't want to let that go. And I think and I hope many of us in our lives have a defining moment where we come back to center and who we are and who we want to be. And how do you, once life kicks back in and everything else, stay centered on that?

21:46 HH: It's and amazing question. When I was on the road because I didn't plan to go, I would run out of money so sometimes I would park the truck at a regional airport, fly back to New York for a few weeks do some work and then go back out to the truck. And the transition space between city and out there... I always call it 'out there', was really hard. Was really hard and I would after a couple weeks I would find myself back in the old rhythms again. So something that I've really been working on has been how do you... Instead of having this up and down of that connection and then disconnection... And then what would happen in my disconnection, I'd start to yearn for the connection and then I'd wanna run away. And it's like you can't keep running away. You have to be able to modulate that a little bit more so that it comes in. Big preamble. So this is what I do, I just know that for me to be able to run the company and live the life I wanna live there are things that I have to do to take care of myself. I have to meditate. I do. I have to journal. I have to work out in the morning. I have to get sleep. And, whereas when I was in my 20s in the city... So I'm an introvert and I need that alone time.

22:51 HH: I always felt like a weirdo and a freak 'cause people would be like, "Let's go out. Like you're in your 20s. You're in New York. You're supposed to be raging constantly, right?" And I've finally gotten to a point in my life where I'm like, "No. This is actually what I need and I'm not going to apologize for that anymore and I'm going to recognize that about myself and that's okay." Just understanding that self care has been a big evolution for me in the last couple of years and how can I be here and also feel really grounded in a profound way. That's been quite a journey to figure that out. It's not easy. What I've learned in my experience is it comes from the top down. So everyone that works for me has a very high integrity of work and they're type A's. It's almost all women too, by the way. And when people started at W&W, it's almost like they're breaking a heroin addiction. When they first come in their impulse is to work the 60 or the 80 for the validation around it and so what I always say to my team is that what we're doing is very unusual and there's going to be times where you feel like you should be working more because your friends are working more because society says you should be working more but you shouldn't.

24:00 HH: And so, I have to preach that quite a bit. The other thing we have to do, is I have to put rules in place. At first I just thought people would be really happy and take time off and work normal hours 'cause I wasn't booking them like crazy. But then I realized that people just have this impulse, so I had to put the 7:00 rule in place. For my leadership team they are not eligible... No one in the company is a full-time employee, is eligible for a bonus unless they take at least two weeks of black out vacation a year. If you don't take your black out vacation you don't get a bonus. And so it's almost like building that into the operations of the company and how you reward. And then finally the third leg of this, is the conversations you have with clients and the way you set it up from the beginning. So written into our contracts, written into our proposals, there's a slide in our proposal that says, "We don't work like the usual suspects."

24:54 HH: And we talk about our rules and we talk about our values and we also build that into our SOWs as well. And what I find is that clients don't care as long as you deliver premium work and the thing that I always say to my team is that we... Because I'm proud and my goal is to create the best brand strategy shop in the country and the world, I want our shop to be like, "That is a shop you want to work at." I demand premium out of my teams and what I tell them all the time is I say, "Expertise equals freedom. Because we are experts, because we deliver so well all the time, we are allowed to have these rules. The instant we start messing up on our deliverables, the instant that the work slips, we lose our freedom." And they understand that. They understand the value of exchange and they also understand that I will support them to get into premium. So even if someone's freaking out and I have to hire in someone and I'm gonna lose money on that project, we will do that because the freedom is more important than the margin on that project.

26:00 KW: I wanna end on kind of a fun note, you were the co-founder of Six Items or Less.

26:06 HH: I what? Yeah, yeah. I was.

26:07 KW: So tell us about, Six Items or Less.

26:10 HH: Six Items or Less was a clothing consumption experiment that a friend and I did about 10 years ago. We had gotten into discussion about how awesome it would be if we actually had a uniform and we wouldn't have to think about what we wore to work every day. And we were thinking about people like Tom Ford and like Steve Jobs who just did that. So we said, "Okay why don't we try this social experiment." So we picked six items of clothing, we're going to wear it for a month, and we're going to document it and we're going to see what happens. A couple of days before the experiment started a blog picked up on it and all of a sudden we had participants from all over the world. There's like 100 people from around the world that did this with us for a month. It was fascinating. It completely changed my attitude towards consumption for the rest of my life, because I think especially with women, if you can get a grip on your relationship with your closet, you can control almost any type of consumption. Because that is our most emotionally fraught consumption area so, if I can control that all of a sudden...

27:10 KW: You control your financial wellbeing.

27:11 HH: Your financial. Yeah, everything else is easy. Right.

27:12 KW: You control your impact on the world. You're controlling... Yes, yes, yes.

27:15 RG: So it was amazing and I'm constantly trying to get back to the Six Items mentality. In fact I have the Six Items mentality with clothes, like I've worn this outfit three days in a row. I really...

27:26 KW: It's a fantastic outfit.

27:27 HH: Thank you and I don't care. And my team is used to it, they're like... The thing that I learned with Six Items, is that about three weeks into the experiment I had been wearing literally the same outfit for five days and one of my co-workers came up to me and said, "Are you still doing that Six Items thing?" And it made me realize that people actually aren't watching you the way you think people are watching you when it comes to clothes.

27:49 KW: Yeah.

27:49 HH: They just aren't. And so, now I will literally just wear the same outfit three days. 'Cause I'm like, "I'm jamming on this outfit right now. It's feeling good. I'm feeling tight. Let's do." You know?

28:00 KW: It's so funny because I can never remember what I wear one day to the next so, oftentimes I'm wearing things multiple times in a week. But I don't remember what anyone else wears. If you would just ask me what is anyone in my company or outside those doors wearing, I have no idea. There's so many things that I care about more than what you're wearing. I actually have really thought a lot about consumption. Now I have children and people love to buy them things.

28:30 HH: Right, right.

28:30 KW: And I end up with a lot of things that then I need to get rid of because they outgrow them or they don't use them and I'm like, "This is just waste." And that's very upsetting to me because we are so focused on buying things, and often lower priced things and in mass quantities, and we're not thinking about then what happens after that.

28:55 HH: Exactly, exactly.

28:57 KW: So I don't know. That experiment really resonated with me.

29:01 HH: Having much less actually gives you a lot of freedom. I always tell my younger employees this. There was a certain moment where I could've upgraded my apartment with my salary and I live in this dumpy building in the East Village and my apartment is nothing to be like, "Woah," about. But with that lower rent, I had less shackles on me and it was a lot easier for me to then go travel the way I traveled. It was a lot easier for me to start the company because I didn't have this big thing hanging over me. And the stuff not only is it just clogging up the world to your point, which is disgusting in its own right, but I also think it clogs up our freedom and our clarity and if you can just say, "I don't have to chase after the latest cut of jacket this season."

29:53 HH: Think about that energy and what you can do with that energy and it's not that I want to look bad. I think I look pretty good day to day. It's not that. It's just if I can find a couple of pieces that are great and then I don't have to think about it anymore, there's so many other amazing things that we can do with that. I always think about... Not to wax on for too long. I always think about how much time I've wasted in obsessing over bad relationships in my life. Like my past boyfriends. [chuckle] And I keep thinking, "Oh my god, if when I was younger, I just would've spent a fourth of that energy working on a business, or trying to solve world peace, I don't think that the second Iraq War would've happened." You know what I mean?


30:33 RG: It's just like there is so much energy expended in stuff, and I think culture conditions us as women, that we're suppose to care so much about that relationship we're in. And we're suppose to care so much about the home that we live in, and the clothes that we have on us. And it's not that I think we should all just regress and be anti-social trolls. But I do think that there is this idea of keeping up as a woman that actually gets in the way of us going out and doing powerful things in the world because of the amount of energy it takes to keep up. And if that makes you happy, great. But I can't tell you how many women through Six Items or Less, through talking to other entrepreneurs, through working with younger women, who are so frustrated by the amount of energy that they're spending on something that they don't actually really care about. And what if you could take that energy and put it towards things that you really care about? That would be amazing.

31:25 KW: Yes, it would. Well, thank you.

31:26 HH: Thank you.

31:27 KW: Thank you so much for joining us today.

31:28 HH: Thanks for having us. It was so fun.


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Community Discussion
Carrie Marvin

So many great thoughts here! Traveling the country in a truck, and on a motorcycle....what a great thing to do with life!!!!! Thank you!

April 7, 2020