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Own It - The Power of Women at Work, with Sallie Krawcheck

Own It - The Power of Women at Work, with Sallie Krawcheck

Episode 41: Own It - The Power of Women at Work, with Sallie Krawcheck

How are you owning 2017? In this special episode, Sallie Krawcheck, Chair of Ellevate Network and Founder and CEO of Ellevest, talks to Kristy about her new book, Own It. Sallie knows the business world is changing, and she thinks that with these changes, women are strategically positioned because of our innate strengths, to be successful. We have the opportunity to use the power we don't even know we have to change the world. We just need to stop taking the advice that says we should act like men.

Episode Transcript

00:13 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Ellevate podcast. Maricella, do you wanna share with our listeners where we are right now?

00:20 Speaker 2: Hey, everyone. We're actually pretty up close and personal over here in a tiny little phone booth. I wish I could explain the size of this, 'cause it's just itty-bitty.

00:31 S1: It's probably smaller than your closet.

00:33 S2: Oh, it's absolutely smaller than a closet.

00:35 S1: It's almost like sitting in the front seat of a car.

00:38 S2: Yeah, that's a good way to describe it but it's Kristy, it's me, and it's Katharine, our producer who is sitting on the floor.

00:45 S1: Yeah, so we're testing out some different locations for better sound. If you like it, let us know. And if you like the podcast, let us know that as well. We always love to hear your feedback, share with your friends, like it on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play. Please rate and review us. It means the world to us, and you are gonna be blown away by today's episode, so I know that this is one you're gonna wanna share.

01:09 S2: Yeah, I know you had a great time with our guest today.

01:14 S1: I did. Our very own Sallie Krawcheck joined me on the podcast today. Many of you have heard her before. She's done the interviews for some of the episodes and I've had the pleasure of interviewing Sallie in the past. But today was an extra special episode because I had her on to talk about her book which is released this week.

01:35 S2: Well, it's released today.

01:37 S1: Today! It's released today! "Own It: The Power of Women at Work" by Sallie Krawcheck.

01:44 S2: It's a great book. It's a really, really great insightful book, so go get it.

01:48 S1: So we're gonna hear from Sallie today about how you can own it, in work and in life. And learn from her stories, her missteps and failures, and how she picked herself back up, kept laughing and kept going.

02:02 S2: Yeah. I love that about Sallie. She is so authentic and so transparent with her stories and just puts it all out there. And there's a lot to learn from that. She's had a wonderful career. And we have been thinking at Ellevate a lot of what's happened last year and how we're gonna make 2017 the year where we all own it, and we all own our success, and we all own our careers and our ambitions, and what we wanna do next. We're doing a promo, we never do promos at Ellevate. It's very rare. We do them once or twice a year. And you can join the network and get 20% off membership using the code "own it" if you do it in January.

02:43 S1: So for those that don't know, Ellevate is a global community of professional women. We're committed to closing the gender achievement gap in business by providing that community to lean on and learn from. We have 500 events a year across the country in the globe. We have a community of women that are leading webinars, submitting articles, and just so committed to helping each other, get more women on boards, more women into senior leadership of companies, more women asking for that raise, and starting their own companies and raising money for that company, and just pursuing their goals and their dreams to get ahead. So check out As Maricella said, we have a promo in the month of January, a 20% off membership, it's an annual membership and just use the code "Own It."

03:33 S2: So Kristy, jumping into our stats and data in which we share with you guys every week, you were talking about the community and we really do have thousands of women who own it. And so we ask them at the beginning of the year, "How will you own 2017?" Any thoughts? How are you owning 2017?

03:49 S1: Well, there's two things that are top of mind for me. [chuckle] I don't know if this is what we cover in our poll. I'm gonna get in shape, and I know probably every single one of us has that goal every January 1st but I'm super committed to that, I signed up for a half marathon, and I signed up for a 40-mile bike ride. It's not a race. I'm owning my health and so that's important. And I'm also gonna own it in 2017 'cause I'm gonna take action. I think that I do a good job of talking about the problems that I see, but I'm not always great at taking action and that's what I'm gonna do. So every time I voice a complaint, I'm gonna also voice the solution or the action I can take to solving that. We'll see how that works out. Check back with me in a few weeks but...

04:45 S2: I love those, and I know you'll be great. Our members, 22% of them actually kind of are, I would say, in a similar mentality. It's really interesting to me to see that the most selected answer of this poll has nothing to do with their career. 22% of them want to own their personal and family life. 21% want to look for a new job, 16 will focus on my side hustle or dream job, so they're really creating that life that they want for themselves. 9% will stand up for myself more. Another 9% say they will start their own business, so great. That is great, that's what we want. 6% say they will have the courageous conversations when they see any inequalities. And another 6% will go back to school or take a class to learn a new skill. 5% will ask for a raise or promotion and 4% will raise their hand for their next big project.

05:48 S1: So what category do you fall into, Maricella?

05:49 S2: Several of these. I do want to take classes and learn new skills. I started doing that last year and I wanna continue that. I want to stand up for myself more, although I think I do a pretty good job of it.

06:03 S1: I think you do, too.

06:06 S2: I want to have more courageous conversations and that's interesting 'cause it's not at work. I have the privilege of working in a company with very like-minded individuals. But outside of work, I saw this when I was home where a lot of people don't understand what I do 'cause they don't even think there's a problem. There is so much that's happening and that people don't even see it. So, those are a few. And then also, I wanna stress less.

06:36 S1: Yeah, stress less. I like that.

06:39 S2: Yeah. I don't know how I'm gonna do that but...

06:41 S1: We'll work on it together. So let's now head over to Sallie Krawcheck and how she's gonna own it in 2017.


07:02 S1: Sallie, why?

07:04 Sallie Krawcheck: Why what?

07:05 S1: Why own it? Why did you write this book?

07:06 SK: It's funny but I keep getting asked, "Why you write the book?" And I think I'm supposed to have some answer or I have this important message to deliver and I do think, as I worked on, and I do think there's an important message. But really I wrote it because the wonderful editor over at Penguin Random House nagged me about it for a couple of years and I kept saying, "I don't really have anything to say." And she said, "You know what, Sallie, you were: One, a research analyst so you have sort of a research-based perspective on business and where it's going, you're an observer. And two, you know you've probably had every experience a woman can have in business, some several times and you probably have some lessons to share. So is there something to morph together between those two?" And writing was really a process. I didn't really start with, "this is what it is", but it was a process to get to a point of view.

08:02 SK: And the point of view, which I really am excited about it and I think is important, is that we women have got such an opportunity to use the power we don't even know we have in a way we couldn't have even a few years ago, to not go to the office everyday and act like men and take the advice to act like men and contort ourselves to be men, but to take our full selves either to offices that respect us, promote us, support us to other offices or to start our own things and to move society, the economy, our families forward in such a positive way.

08:50 SK: And I think that what we see is that so much of the advice for so long for women has been so well-meaning but has been based on business as it's been. And so it's been, "Negotiate like a man, ask for the raise like a man." And we've done it and we've exhausted ourselves.

09:08 S1: Yep.

09:08 SK: Exhausted ourselves. And many women have left business because they say, "I just can't do this anymore." But that if we bring the qualities to work that we're so great at, seeing things holistically, having a long-term perspective, focused on meaning and purpose, love of learning, risk awareness, relationship orientation. These things we bring to work demonstrably make companies better, are going to be in even more demand and we have the power to shift and move business through the resources we have. Done.

09:42 S1: I'm sold. And you do a great job of the book of really laying out this argument and being very action oriented. I wanna hit on something you mentioned as to why you wrote the book, which is storytelling. And you used some unbelievable, very powerful stories in the book that really resonated with me personally. Why do you think storytelling is so important?

10:08 SK: Well, as much as I love statistics, they slip right off the brain. Right? [chuckle] I mean, they don't for me. I'll carry 'em around for forever, but you find that these things just slip away. Was it 63%? Was it 26%? I can't remember. But we, and particularly the research shows, we women, we're geared for the beginning, the middle, and the end. And so what I did try to do was to represent some of what we were talking about through the stories of what happened over the course of working on Wall Street, having kids while working on Wall Street, getting fired while working on Wall Street, starting a business. All these things which each of them has been such an amazing experience that I've really been so privileged to have.

10:55 S1: You dedicate on it to your grandmother. Can you share a story about her?

11:00 SK: Aw. It's so funny you're the second person today who's noticed that. Of the pre-copies, no one has noticed that. So back before badass was a compliment, my grandmother was a badass. So she came over, her name was Esther Bielski. She came from Poland at the age of eight. We have actually found her little documentation at Ellis Island. She had four children, she's such a badass. She had my father when she was in her 40s which was scandalous. The woman went to work everyday in Charleston, South Carolina at the family store, starting her own business, The Women Store. And she was the only woman I knew who worked. She just didn't give an F about what other people thought. It's so funny. She died when I was probably 16 years old, and it's interesting 'cause I'm not 16 any longer. In fact, even talking about it, I still sometimes I miss her. I miss her still and I miss the force that she was in my life. And it was just the other day I thought, "I wonder if she can see us," because boy, would she love her grandchildren. Great-grandchildren. [chuckle] Great-grandchildren.

12:17 S1: I love that, that we at Ellevate like to focus on the women that inspire us. And I think oftentimes we're looking big picture, but it's all of these strong women who have come before us who are standing alongside of us that are inspiring us everyday. As you talked about why you wrote "Own It" and how business is changing technology, the traits that women bring to the table are really fueling business. How can each of us own our success and power to capitalize on these changes?

12:51 SK: So first of all, one point I wanna make is that women have had a lot of money for a long time, and women have been half the workforce for a long time, and women have controlled household spending for a long time. The thing that's different now is that we didn't have the information with which to... We didn't have as many options. Back in my day, if I worked at a company and they didn't treat me well, I could stay at that company. I could, without any information really, except maybe I'd take a friend for a drink, I could go to another company. I'd say, "Hey, how's your maternity policy? She's like, "Oh, yeah, I think someone took a maternity leave. I think it's this," right? So I'd go without much information. Or I could go home.

13:29 SK: Today, if a company doesn't treat me or other women or other people well, I can not only have that drink, but I can go to all sorts of resources that crowdsource corporate cultures that compare maternity leaves. And I know Ellevate Network on its site have made a lot of those resources available. Ellevest has an ebook on it, so both organization's trying to, "Here are the four sources to go to." So I can go to another company with more information, I can start my own company 'cause the price of that is plummeting, or I can put together a non-conventional career.

14:05 SK: At the same time, I can use my money, I can go to the grocery store, and I can use different web apps to determine the policies of companies I buy from, and I can invest in companies that advance women. And I can use social media to share all of this, so rather than, "Hey, I'm sort of stuck," we've got so many more levers for power today. And by the way, what I think is also really interesting is that it almost feels like we have this spark that putting aside politics please, which I know is absolutely impossible to do, that the last election has demonstrated to people that you gotta be in the game. And what we're hearing more and more from the women of Ellevate Network, professional women overall is, "I wanna take some action," and a little bit of, "I'm sort of sick of the fact that we've been having these conversations for so long, we haven't made as much progress, so what can I personally do?" So those things we can do.

15:03 SK: And then there's the day-to-day, Kristy. You remember the Ellevate Network event? Ellyn Shook, head of HR at Accenture, it was the things that HR professionals will only tell you after two or three glasses of wine. And she talked about, "What is the courageous conversation you're willing to have?" And I almost... Like my jaw went to the floor. I love that term. And so the other thing I think we can do beyond the, "I'm gonna quit," or, "I'm gonna start my own company," is the, "What courageous conversation are you gonna have?" Is it going to be, and I talk about in the book, asking your boss when he's on a panel that's about gender issues why he keeps interrupting the other women? That might be a little bit too courageous for some of us, but is it going to be the quiet conversation where you pull one of your peers aside and said, "Look dude, you're rolling over the women in the meeting but you're not rolling over the guys." Or is it gonna be the courageous conversation where you get the feedback. Women get less feedback at work than men, but where you actively go after that feedback to become a professional. What courageous conversation? If we each of us have one courageous conversation a day, that changes the world.

16:13 S1: Yeah. I do remember that event, and one of the reasons I remember it so clearly is that I was on maternity leave with Zoe, and she was two months old, and it was an event that I was like, "I cannot miss this event. I have to be there." And I went and it was an amazing event. Women were just networking, and talking, and sharing insights. We had a few women that actually received job offers from that event.

16:41 SK: And remember, we wouldn't let anybody tweet.

16:42 S1: We wouldn't, no.

16:43 SK: Wouldn't let anybody use social media, so that these HR professionals, they went deep. Went deep.

16:48 S1: Yes, they absolutely went deep. So I'm bringing this up because you talk in the book about the power of networking, and something that I struggle with as a very busy professional, business leader/mom is I don't have time. But I saw from that event, where I went with my little baby strapped to my chest is I learned a lot. I met tons of people. It was an hour-and-a-half of my time that was very well spent. But tips for networking, how do you make the most of it?

17:21 SK: Well, obviously near and dear to your heart, to our hearts given Ellevate Network, I think I say in the book, "I believe in the power of networking so much I bought a friggin' network." Because I really do. And networking has been called the number one unwritten rule of success in business. It's something nobody tells you. Men get it sooner than women do, and it is a reason, sometimes the reason but a reason that men are promoted ahead of women in their 30s. Because in the 20s we all sort of are figuring it out, in the 40s everybody's good at their job, but in the 30s knowing the person who's filling the job or knowing about the advisory board position matters, and it's tough. Nobody's got time to do anything except you have time to do stuff that's important. And this is.

18:08 SK: And so it doesn't have to be the 18 rounds of golf and the beer afterwards. Having the event set makes it a lot easier, right? I don't have to call people around for drinks. I just show up. I can put in a crisp 30 minutes, see folks, have half a glass of wine and leave. But I find too, Kristy, that once your relationships are established, sure, is it great to go to lunch with someone? Absolutely, it is. Is it also terrific to email somebody and say, "Saw this piece of research. Thought you'd be interested"?

18:43 SK: A couple of days ago, a fellow who I used to work for emailed me, "Hey, just been thinking about you. How are you doing?" Just those touches, right? Just those touches so that, "Everybody, I'm here. I'm thinking of you. How are you? What are you doing?" And then you'll go through periods when you don't have a baby strapped to the front of your body, where you've got more time and you can delve in in a different way but you don't wanna let it go. As one who's been fired on the front page of the Wall Street Journal twice, let me assure you, ladies and gentlemen, on the call. I didn't think I was gonna get fired either. I also didn't think my first husband was gonna have an affair with my ex-friend either. So stuff happens you are not expecting and when it does, you don't wanna be like, "Oh, darn it. I don't know anybody except people who work in my old company who won't return my phone call now."

19:31 S1: So just talked about getting fired, marital problems, having babies. Money.

19:38 SK: Money!

19:38 S1: Because you need money for all that too.

19:40 SK: Okay. Money, money, money, money, money is power.

19:42 S1: And we're talking about careers.

19:43 SK: Money is power.

19:44 S1: Careers. Money. How do we do this? How do we own this?

19:46 SK: Money is power. Okay, let me go so far to say that we women will not be fully equal with men until we are financially equal with men, full stop. And this is somehow not, I think, been bubbled up enough in the discussions around. Look, I'm not an expert in feminism, I never claim to be. The book is my story. But I'll tell you as I talk to women about how we advance, money just doesn't come up. In fact, I would say money is the place where we still accept Ward and June and Beaver Cleaver. Don't get me started on my industry Wall Street, it keeps women from investing because it's all about beating the market, and outperforming, and picking a winner, making more money, and all these masculine winning things. The industry symbol is a bull. You know what that stands for. It's a phallic symbol, in every way. In every way.

20:44 SK: Actually, we recently done some work in which we've identified seven gender money gaps. Let me see if I can remember them all. There's the gender pay gap, which Ellevate Network is so focused on. There's the gender work achievement gap, sort of a little bit of the different side of the same coin that Ellevate Network is focused on. There's the gender investing gap, which Ellevest is focused on. There's the gender expense gap, we pay more for the same things, the tricycle with the flowers on it. There's the gender debt gap, it can take us longer to pay off our debt. There's the gender funding gap, where it's harder to get funded for a business if you're a woman. And there's the gender unpaid labor gap, where we are doing... [chuckle] And then! And I tried to sort of... We wrote an ebook on this and I tried to wedge it in the ebook and I couldn't. There's also the gender time gap for expectations that you will look good.

21:41 S1: I know where you're going with this one.

21:42 SK: You know where I'm going with this one. So this is one where if we only take an extra 15 minutes a day, than men do, for grooming, I take more, but let's say an extra 15 minutes a day putting on that mascara, getting that under eye concealer just right, which is hard to do, sometimes it's cakey, it gets very cakey under there. You had to put on a little extra moisturizer. It's a problem. But if you only 15 minutes more a day, that's an hour and 15 minutes a week, that's five hours a month, that's 60 hours a year, so that's one full work week a year, we ain't getting paid for it. But it's time that definitely, definitely saps away from... Well, let's just say, the finer things in life.

22:25 SK: And the tough thing, I was thinking about this yesterday, the tough thing about our society historically has been we get poo-pooed for it. "Oh, she's so slow getting ready for dinner" but the social price that we pay if we turn out not looking turned out is high. Anyway, so you gotta make some more friggin' money.

22:45 S1: Yes.

22:46 SK: Right?

22:47 S1: Let's talk about action 'cause that's one thing I have to say I love about the book. Actions, solutions. I'm very action driven. Alright...

22:56 SK: Well, this is what's exciting.

22:57 S1: How do we make more money?

22:58 SK: This is what's exciting now. First of all, the gender investing gap is why I founded Ellevest because I looked around and said, "Okay, this puppy is not only making us feel shamed but is costing us hundreds of thousands for some women listening, there's millions of dollars over the course of our lives 'cause Wall Street is trying to make us invest like men. So this is costing us. So I went and friggin' founded the company over it. Also, what's exciting is that the gender pay gap. Back in my day, "Well, okay, I don't think I'm getting paid what the guys are but I don't really know." And again, so then I'm takin' a girlfriend out for a drink and yeah, "I gotta try to get you drunk so that you'll talk about money 'cause it's so shameful." I don't know, and the guys won't tell me and so I'm supposed to go ask for a raise but I don't even know what to ask for.

23:47 SK: Okay, so today, these sources are not perfect but all of a sudden you've got all kinds of websites, whether it's, or Comparably, or Hired. Or... What, there was one payroll maybe? I don't know. There are about a zillion of 'em out there that will actually tell you how much you should be paid. While each one is not perfect, you get enough of them, you triangulate what it should be. You're equipped with power in a way that we just weren't earlier in our careers.

24:17 S1: But Sallie, honestly, what's the big deal? I make a thousand dollars less this year, and a thousand dollars less next year. Is that really gonna impact me long term?

24:28 SK: Yeah, obviously.


24:29 S1: That was a baited question. Your eyes just popped out of your head.

24:32 SK: I can't even believe you asked that. Well, that's okay because you're gonna live six to eight years longer than your spouse. If you are the typical American woman, you are gonna retire with two-thirds of money of a guy. If there is a retirement savings crisis in this country, and there is, 80% of nursing home residents are women. This is our problem. This is our problem and I think the really exciting thing, Kristy, is that if we can close these gender money gaps, we can go most the way, the majority of the way to closing the retirement savings gap. Oh, that's good for our country. And we get more money into the economy because you spend some of that money.

25:16 S1: Yes, I do.

25:16 SK: We get more money in the markets because you invest some of that money. Here's the other great thing that happens. Your daughters and your sons, but your daughters watch you being in control of your money.

25:29 S1: I love the analogy you use in the book around negotiating that raise. It can be sometimes hard advocating for yourself, and it's... Can be awkward. But you said, if you think about a mom who's negotiating something for her kid, if it's the better teacher, the better... Whatever that is, she's gonna fight with a fierceness, and a dedication, and a confidence. We need to do that for ourselves.

25:56 SK: I know. Well, that's the thing. Everybody are, "Women aren't as good negotiators as men are." Have you seen a mom negotiating at school for her child? Like, no! And so yeah, it is a little weird, "Oh, I you know... For me." And look, we're taught, we're taught, we're supposed to be modest. If we're looking for power, that's... Society frowns on and all that stuff. But we have to turn this and say, "I'm negotiating for my family." And by the way, it doesn't mean... And I think some of the issues with some of the writing out there for women on negotiation for raises is, it doesn't mean you're always gonna get it. And so what I advise is, have six other things in your back pocket. So if you're told no on that raise, ask for a promotion, ask for an overseas assignment, ask for a mentorship from the new hotshot that just got brought in, ask for partial reimbursement for a coding class, ask for a stint in the XYZ department. So there are lots of things you can ask for. And I find, your boss might say no to you twice. By about the fourth request, he's gonna wanna say yes to something. And no, you're not gonna get fired at the end of it because you asked. You just won't.

27:14 SK: And then last night, we were having this debate and someone said, "Well, I really like to do this via email." And I said, "No, no, no, no, no. I want them to say no to my face." [laughter] If they're gonna say no, I want 'em to look right at these brown eyes and say "No." 'Cause they're not gonna say no 12 times.

27:29 S1: Yep, absolutely. We've talked about some tough subjects: Asking for that raise, about financial feminism, retirement gap, or the savings investing gap. Let's talk about something that to me is very uplifting, which is women helping women. We're seeing the end of the 'queen bee'...

27:54 SK: Thank goodness.

27:55 S1: We're seeing mentoring and sponsorship, and women together collectively. And you referenced the current climate of our nation earlier of women collectively working together to close all these gaps and to drive equality.

28:10 SK: I'm smiling at you, and I'm laughing a little bit 'cause I write in the book about a queen bee who stung me. Stung me pretty badly. You know I always, I never had, because I worked on Wall Street, I never had an older, more senior woman who was looking after me. So when one did, I was just like, "Oh, oh, my god. Oh, thank you." And then of course, she, well, was on the other side of the table when I got booted out. I gotta tell you something funny, just between you and me and everybody who's listening.

28:45 S1: It's just us.

28:45 SK: I did not hear from her, of course, for years. Got an email from her a few weeks ago.

28:52 S1: No!

28:53 SK: Stop it!

28:53 S1: No! You did not tell me that!

28:53 SK: Yes! Of course, I did. Of course, I did. "Wanna have a cup of coffee?" [chuckle] "Get together, catch up. Really got some things I think we need to talk through." And I'm like, "It has been how many years." And I just wanted to email her back and say, "The book has gone to the printer lady."

29:12 S1: Okay.


29:14 SK: But she brought it up. When we went back and forth, she's like, "Well, I understand the book went to print." I'm like, "Oh, god!" I understand why it happened. I totally get it. If there was one seat at the table, and you're there, and you've got it, it's really hard to help someone else who might take it away and particularly if that person who's coming up has good business results and etcetera, etcetera. I get it. I got it. Here's what's great, is that the research is becoming so compelling about the power of gender diversity. So not tomorrow, and maybe not the next day, and not the next day but at some point, it is so friggin' overwhelming that a board is going to be shirking, really it's fiduciary duty if it doesn't say, "Why is there one woman?"

30:00 S1: Yep.

30:00 SK: Right? At some point. And I do believe that the companies, the research is clear, that are doing this well, will have more than one woman at that table, more than one person of difference at that table. As more of us, more women are successful, more of us can be successful. Not at some big companies that are stuck in their ways, not tomorrow, not the next day but at forward-looking companies and in a start-up world, I think this 'queen bee' thing is over. And what I love when I go to the West Coast, my friends who are in tech, it's over for them. They are helping each other, they're making introductions for each other, they are going out of their way for each other in a way I hadn't seen till recently here on the East Coast.

30:41 S1: Alright, so we're gonna do a fun little game right now, which I've not told you about.

30:46 SK: Oh great, fantastic.

30:47 S1: But we're gonna do a lightning round.

30:48 SK: Oh god.

30:49 S1: I'm going to say a word and I want you to tell me what comes to your head. Mansplaining?

30:58 SK: Man... Splain... Ing.

31:00 S1: Do you understand... What I'm saying to you?

31:01 SK: Waste... Of... Time.

31:08 S1: [chuckle] Alright. Confidence?

31:11 SK: Confidence. Attractive but be careful because we are so drawn to confidence that it can blind us to the fact that maybe someone's confidence in themselves is misplaced.

31:27 S1: Very true. Sponsors?

31:29 SK: Sponsors, good, good. Sponsors women have... What are those numbers? Do you remember them? Women have got three times as many mentors as men and only half as many sponsors. Something like that.

31:40 S1: Yeah, something like that.

31:41 SK: We need more, we need more.

31:42 S1: We do. Unpaid work?

31:46 SK: Ugh, bleh, bleh. [laughter]

31:48 S1: Not good?

31:49 SK: Not good. Not good unless it's equally shared within the household. My household isn't there yet. I cook, he cleans up which is good but the unpaid work that I would love to have more evenly split is the worry. I'm the one who's awake...

32:11 S1: Losing sleep.

32:11 SK: I'm the one who... Last week, when my daughter was home from college, woke up every night to make sure that she had gotten home safely. Gary slept like a baby, like a toddler.

32:22 S1: I know. I know.

32:23 SK: Through the whole thing, I just think, "How can you do that when your daughter's out in New York?" So that's the unpaid labor that I don't even think we ever talk about that, of just the weight of the worry.

32:35 S1: Flexibility without shame?

32:36 SK: There we go. Yes! Too many companies have flexibility programs that everybody knows they're not really allowed to take advantage of and until we get to flexibility without shame, the fact that I would like to work Friday afternoons from home does not mean I'm not ambitious. The fact that I had to take time off because something went awry in my personal life does not mean I'm not ambitious. But somehow, somehow those are still viewed in the world as it is today, not tomorrow as friggin' weaknesses.

33:09 S1: Alright, another F word. Failure?

33:11 SK: Failure, gotta embrace it. It's gonna happen more and more to all of us and if we as women still fall into that failure as embarrassing thing, we're gonna sub-optimize our careers.

33:23 S1: Feminism?

33:24 SK: Feminism, yay! Go! I don't know how it got a bad brand rap there for years, but yes, I'm going to say I'm a feminist. I really do believe that women should have the same opportunities as men. Call me crazy.

33:37 S1: [chuckle] Professional mission?

33:39 SK: Professional mission, I think women have that in spades. In fact, I don't even know how... I think it was tough for work to be fun if you don't have a professional mission.

33:49 S1: Oh, I agree.

33:50 SK: I've had job offers in the past where I thought, "Well I could go in and I can make some money and what I would do would be interesting but it just doesn't align with having a positive impact on the world around me, so why would... " Obviously, we're privileged and everybody doesn't have that choice but if I can have also in my work the opportunity to make other people's lives better all day long. All day long.

34:16 S1: Company culture?

34:17 SK: Company culture, so...

34:20 S1: And values?

34:21 SK: Yeah, the issue is that it's historically been hard to get to. Every company has the same values pretty much. Nobody says, "Our people are cogs in our machine." We only say good things about them till they leave and then we say mean things about them. But important to get your arms around before you go work for a company.

34:42 S1: Wine?

34:42 SK: Necessary.

34:44 S1: And cats?

34:45 SK: Aww! Yeah, wine and cats. That's our culture here.

34:49 S1: [chuckle] That is our culture.