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Avoiding Burnout, with Emilie Aries

Avoiding Burnout, with Emilie Aries


Episode 51: Avoiding Burnout, with Emilie Aries

Emilie Aries had a career that started with a bang: she was the youngest state director in the nation helping President Obama push for policies like federal health reform, was recruiting training and managing hundreds of volunteers, and living a busy life… until it caught up with her. Finding herself burnout at age 25, Emilie decided to change her life. She founded Bossed Up, a training company that helps women manage career transition and avoid burnout. In this episode, Emilie shares her own experience with burnout, how to avoid it, her views on what it takes for gender equality to be real, the realities of meritocracy and how to rejuvenate.


Episode Transcript

00:13 Kristy Wallace: Hi, and welcome to the Ellevate Podcast. I have a huge smile on my face while I say this because I'm so excited, as I always am, for this week's guest. I'm so excited because we are sharing the stories of women that are changing the face of business, that are doing amazing things, and I'm excited to share it with you, our listeners. So I hope you enjoy it too. Quick, gentle reminder, if you love Ellevate Podcast please share it with your friends, and please rate it and review it on iTunes. That'd mean so much to us and it goes a long way in terms of getting our message out there to others who are interested in hearing these stories as well. So thanks for joining me today, and I'm here with Maricella, my partner in crime, to talk about this week's podcast.

01:05 Maricella Herrera: Hey Kristy. How did it feel to listen to your podcast the other day?

01:09 KW: Oh my God, it's... It was cool. It's fun listening to yourself and the stories that I shared, and I just realize how much fun I have with this. So fortunate to be able to do this as part of Ellevate, as part of... The impact we're having and my personal therapy. But no, it's great. I love it and I had fun, so thank you.

01:36 MH: No, thank you. I'm really happy, thank you for letting me do an interview. It was fun to do it. The podcast is sort of near and dear to my heart, as you all know and it's good. I think the stories you shared are very important and will be very valuable for people. And since you are using the podcast as your own therapy session, as you've said, wanted to remind everyone that we can also be your therapy session, as we've said in a few other episodes, we are opening it up for questions from you, any career advice, any info; you can email us at podcast@ellevatenetwork.com or tweet at us using the hashtag ellevatepod. And we actually have our first one that came in.

02:24 KW: Yeah, as you know... As Maricella knows, I have an opinion on everything. It may not always be the best one, but I've got an answer.

02:31 MH: Well, I'm right there with you.

02:32 KW: Yeah.

02:33 MH: We're a pretty opinionated team. So here's the first one, our very own first question. And it goes like this, "I'm a senior research analyst in capital markets at a small, male dominated research and consultancy firm. I have been in the financial services industry for 35 years, but don't feel that my knowledge and experience is acknowledged or appreciated by my management. I tend to be dominated by the louder voices in the firm, and don't know how to best express my ideas and thoughts so that they have impact. I really love my job but need to make myself better appreciated."

03:12 KW: I would say, congrats to you on 35 years in finance. I think anyone who's in finance for that long... Maricella and I didn't last more than a year or two so kudos to you. But I think you've got a few paths forward, one is really thinking if this is the right place for you. There are many fantastic companies out there with great cultures that really look to hear all voices, and many companies in finance. So it might be an opportunity for you to look and see what else might be out there and explore those options. Having... Being just direct and upfront in the workplace, think about the situations where you feel that your voice is not being heard, where you feel like you're not getting the respect, and take steps towards changing that. So if it's talking to your manager, if it's speaking up at the table if someone interrupts you and just say, "Hey, John. I'm sure what you have to say is great but let me finish my story, let me finish my point." Often times, at least for me, I didn't want to rattle to many feathers and like, "Oh, it's okay. Fine if they interrupted me." But it's not okay, it's not okay. And I've learned that it's not okay. So be your best advocate, speak up for yourself and fight the good fight.

04:46 MH: Yeah. And find allies, I think having allies is always good.

04:49 KW: Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

04:52 MH: So that's our first question. So if you have any other ideas, info, advice that you want to give to this person, just tweet at us with #ellevatepod, or send it to podcast@ellevatenetwork.com and we can pass it along.

05:06 KW: Great, excellent.

05:08 MH: Cool, so who are we talking to today Kristy?

05:11 KW: Today we're talking to Emilie Aries who's the founder of Bossed Up, and super cool. She came in and chatted with me in the office and then, actually, was a moderator for an Ellevate event later that night, so had a full day of Ellevate. But, man we just talked about some really interesting things. She started out on the campaign trail knocking on doors and ended up being an entrepreneur and a true thought leader, so I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I did. But it was really fantastic.

05:46 MH: Yeah. Emilie is such an interesting person. She talks very openly about how she faced burn out and how people should take more care of themselves, which I think it's something that we should talk more about. I think a lot of people don't really want to face the fact that we are never disconnecting, that we are working long hours and not necessarily taking care of the other parts of our life.

06:13 KW: Absolutely.

06:14 MH: And taking care of our health. So in that sense, I know you guys talked a lot about how you actually take care of yourself. I had a poll here of "How do you invest in yourself?" Anything that you think makes it...

06:32 KW: We've talked. I meditate. I eat pretty healthy, I think. That's thanks to my husband who does all the cooking, and I am really trying to get back into fitness. I do Kickboxing, which I love, it's fantastic. But I want to run and make fitness more of my daily routine. It's like... A day will go by and I'm like, "Ah, I didn't do anything today." And if I could just make it where I do planks or sit-ups or push-ups or something for five minutes a day, I would be happy. Make it a routine, so that's my goal.

07:08 MH: Routines are hard though, but yeah, that would be amazing. So we asked our members how they invest in themselves, 41% of them say they exercise, 12% say they take time off for themselves every day, which, kudos; I don't... Amazing. Another 12% say they keep up-to-date on topics that they care, so something outside of of their usual work. 10% develop their professional skills, so more work. Guys, you should do something else. 7% of them take classes, another 7% meditate like you. 4% actually, this is very interesting, 4% build their network and that's how they consider they're investing in themselves which I'm not gonna disagree. That's very important both for your career, but also for your mental health to have people in your corner, and to have people who you can count on. And 3% build their personal brand, which is interesting. 2% say they don't.

08:09 KW: Do anything?

08:10 MH: No. They don't invest in themselves.

08:11 KW: Okay. Well, I'm super inspired by the 41% that work out. Awesome. You are my role models. I'm going to think of you tomorrow when I'm trying to do sit ups. And for everybody else, except for those 2% that don't do anything, good for you. Congratulations. Life is so busy and it gets away from us, and we don't take care of our greatest asset which is ourselves. So whether it's working out your mind, or your body, or your spirit, anything you do that brings you fulfillment and joy is so important. So thanks for sharing what you do with us and congratulations.

08:49 MH: Great. And now we're gonna hear from Emilie.

[music]

09:03 KW: I cannot even begin to put into words your background and your experiences which are quite impressive. Do you want to share a little bit with our audience how you got to where you are today?

09:17 Emilie Aries: Sure. First let me start by saying, I am the founder and CEO of Bossed Up, which is my training company that helps women navigate career transition with an eye towards breaking the cycle of burnout, and helping women invest in sustainable success. We do that through in-person training programs like Bossed Up Boot Camp, and we also help companies retain and develop their female talent. So Ellevate and Bossed Up, we have a lot of love for the work that you do.

09:44 KW: Absolutely.

09:46 EA: But the road to getting here, honestly, I never thought I was gonna be an entrepreneur. So I started Bossed Up because this was the community I desperately needed a few years prior, when I found myself completely and utterly burnt out before the age of 25. And I never saw that coming either because I had graduated with this fancy-schmancy degree in hand from Brown University, studying political science. I knew I wanted to change the world for the better, and I really had the privilege and opportunity to step into a leadership role at a very young age. I was the youngest State Director in the nation helping then newly-elected President Obama push for policies like Federal Health Reform, and through that work I was recruiting, training and managing over 200 volunteers across the State of Rhode Island. And this was peak recession, too, so I found myself fortunate to have a job at all. And that seeing my talented, incredible colleagues graduate into that recession environment and stumble our way through our early 20s together, was a very humbling experience.

10:55 EA: But one that left me stuck with what I call the "Martyrdom Mindset" which was, "Who am I to deserve anything more?" And that imposter syndrome feel of being way in over my head and, "Who am I to even belong in this role?" They took such a chance on me; I'm gonna over deliver and perfect and over perform for as long as I possibly can. And honestly, those skills, perfecting, performing, pleasing everyone else around us, those do us a great service as women in academics, when we know what the rubric requires of us, when we know what the syllabus is gonna be. But in life after college there's no end of a semester. And so I found myself non-stop, glued to my Blackberry and iPhone before my feet hit the ground every morning. I was running across the state of Rhode Island hosting events at night, going to political happy hours, networking non-stop. I'd lost touch with all of my dearest friends who'd dispersed across the country. And I had gone from being a student athlete to not setting foot in a gym for about three years.

12:01 EA: I'm sure no one listening knows what I'm talking about. But I'd lost my sense of power and agency over my own life. The ironic piece here is that I was in the midst of helping other people to own their power, to make their voices heard, to make their agency in their country known while I was losing touch with my own agency over my own life. And it sorta came to a head when I was, in this very melodramatic way, driving across my alma mater's campus at Brown, and stopped in the cross walk in front of me were a bunch of students rolling their bags home for Thanksgiving break. And I was filled with a jealous rage. All I wanted was to sub in, "Just let me do what they're doing. I can crush it all semester long and then go home." When do I get permission to feel like this is enough? When do I get permission to put my feet up and watch Netflix for a week and feel like, "You know what? Midterms are over. I'll get ready for finals next week." And I was longing for someone else to intervene. I was in the driver's seat physically, but I didn't feel spiritually in the driver's seat of my life.

13:11 KW: That's so funny you say that because when... I remember being in school thinking, "I can't wait 'til I graduate and have a real job, because then I'm not gonna have homework at night, and I'm not gonna have tests...

13:21 EA: Me too.

13:21 RG: And I'm not gonna have... And in my mind when I was in school, I couldn't... It was going to be easier once I graduated. But it wasn't; I had a very similar experience to you actually. I spent one year where I worked all but two Saturdays.

13:37 EA: Wow.

13:37 KW: And I would go into the office and sit there by myself, and I was the only one there and working, and working, and working. And I think part of it is I felt like I had to prove something, and the harder I worked the more I could prove myself. And to be honest, the culture of business, and even though I worked for a great company, was I believe, that as a woman I had to work harder to get to where I was. And I got farther and I was very accomplished for a young age, but if I had not worked that hard I would never have gotten to where I was. But I think it was... I had to over compensate in many ways.

14:22 EA: That's so interesting you say that, I struggle with that dichotomy. I think black women know this better than anyone, black people in general do tell me, "We've been told since we were born we have to be twice as good to go half as far." And if you believe that, which... That's grounded in truth 'cause injustice is alive and well in our very imperfect country that I still love dearly. But if we actually internalize that, it sets us up for not only resentment, but feeling less than, internally. So I think there's this interesting dichotomy between having a sense of, I'll say it, entitlement or worthiness, which I know is a hot button issue for millennials who apparently have too much entitlement. But feeling like, "I'm working my butt off. I deserve to lead a mentally healthy life. I deserve a workplace where I feel valued," and to also hold that philosophy in your own mind with your own sense of leadership identity of who I am and what I can achieve, with this suppressing reality of injustice.

15:37 EA: It's a really weird binary set of thoughts to hold in the same time, but I think it allows us to be ambitious and hold a safe amount of self-acceptance. Be ambitious in the face of injustice while also being kind to ourselves and voting with our feet. I'm a big believer in... Especially now, it doesn't feel this way perhaps, 'cause it feels a little uncertain right now because of our political climate, but our economy is strong. Employers are investing in retention because workers have choices. I believe if you are in a toxic workplace, if you are... And again we have to parse between self-inflicted toxicity like what I was experiencing, or a culture that's toxic but vote with your feet. Get out, figure it out. And that's, honestly, that's what happened to me is that I was set up to succeed by an incredible, wonderful organization run by the people who ran the president's campaign. And I was inflicting all of that pain on myself, because I did not, at the time, have a healthy sense of self-worth.

16:48 EA: I felt like I had to prove myself constantly to the point where it took burning out to recognize that, not only is this moral right thing to do, invest in my personal sustainability, but it's also the strategic career move. Because when we actually look, and I find this with the women I work with, when we frame self-care as a strategic career decision, self-care being connected to your long term professional viability or efficacy, then it actually... It's an easier pill to swallow. 'Cause America has a really weird relationship with work, I think it goes right all the way to our puritanical roots and our protestant work ethic, and it makes it really hard for us to draw healthy boundaries in this hyper-connected overworked environment we're in.

17:35 KW: Oh yeah and, I mean, you have companies that are saying, "We want good work-life balance and we want to be competitive in this marketplace, so we're gonna offer maybe unlimited leave, but we really don't want you to take it. Or we're going to... " Yeah, "Work from home, but yet don't," or...

17:55 EA: Right. Well, "Work from home if you don't want a promotion ever."

17:58 KW: Yeah and...

18:00 EA: Right.

18:00 KW: That's not just even tied to women and to parents, but it's in general, this culture of saying one thing and actually meaning another. And it's because it's hard for the leaders of business to still get away from the person who's responding to emails at night, and on weekends, and who's putting in the face time and is doing all these things, is who's really committed.

18:29 EA: I think everybody, during the recession, learned how to do more with less. I think companies learned how to get more productivity out of very fearful employees. And now, we employees, have set a bar that has become the norm that is not sustainable, and that's the difference. I think we all have periods of craziness in our work lives, but if we don't match those intervals of hyper activity with rest and renewal, we set ourselves up to burnout, and burnout is extremely costly to employers. It costs... The American Psychological Association says $300 billion a year are lost in absenteeism, employee turnover and stress related illness. We're talking about a sick culture. And the funny thing about being in a position of creating a culture at my own company, is that I see the chasm that can sometimes emerge between intent and polices that are set with the best of intentions, and culture. So culture... What do they say in business school? "Culture eats business strategy for breakfast," because those unspoken norms, the way that relationships influence power in your office. If you are in an office where people truly believe being at your desk from 8:00 AM to whenever, 7:00 PM, 9:00 PM, makes you a more efficient worker then we have a problem. I think there's a dissociation between physical presence and actual productivity.

19:57 KW: Yeah. But you see now, in this day and age where our economy is stronger and it is more competitive, how important it is to not just say the words but to really live it.

20:13 EA: Walk the walk, yeah.

20:14 KW: You want to be a leader and have a company where people want to be there, and where they're telling their friends, and where they are really... Not just happy to be there but they're happy to help the company grow, to be innovative, to think of new ideas, to connect with customers. The value of just having an engaged workforce is huge.

20:37 EA: Right, right, it's huge. So huge I've been shocked at how many companies are working with us. I rolled out burnout prevention courses for individuals. I rolled out Bossed Up Boot Camp for women navigating career transition. What I didn't see coming were the companies who said, "Hey, can you bring that conversation about gender equality in the workplace, or burnout prevention in the workplace to our company? We as an organization believe in it, how do we do it?" So I've been really, taken aback at the employer interest in fixing that culture. And I think it has something to do with the rise of transparency when it comes to websites and word of mouth ways of showcasing your culture. I think of InHerSight, which is a great online Yelp for women friendliness as a rating or metric for your office. And it was started by an awesome woman I know just over the Potomac in northern Virginia, and she's helping women report the unspoken realities of, "Do women get promoted in this office? Do women get sidetracked off the promotion pipeline if they do take parental leave, or do men?" And all those...

21:57 EA: Such intangible cultural metrics are becoming easier to measure. I think there are well intentioned employers out there too, but there are such structural barriers in certain industries. For instance, in architecture there's an organization, the missing, I want to say 38%, I always get it wrong, but there's a missing percentage of the women who come out of architecture school and the percentage of women who get licensed... Licensure, become licensed architects. And there is a very concrete obstacle which is, men and women architects have to go through grad school, so they're already graduating at entry level a little bit later than your average college grad to just get into architecture. Then you have to take a series of exams that take years. You have to log an enormous amount of hours worked before you can actually take your final qualifying exam to become licensed, which all culminates around the age of 31 for college educated women. Which happens to correspond with when many college aged women start having children.

23:01 EA: So when there are structural barriers in industries that refuse to change, or are having these big burly conversations about how do we adapt, that's a big ball of yarn to untangle. But we're not gonna see those numbers budge until we have private sector and public sector reform. And obviously, there's a business case for it. Obviously gender diversity helps boost businesses bottom lines; I think we all can agree on that. I think Lean In hammered that home pretty clearly. But no one said that was gonna be easy.

23:36 KW: There's, on so many levels, just talking about paid leave for example. My husband who owns his own business, we were talking about this the other day, and debating some of the legislation that's on the table right now around paid leave. And is it a tax that is split between employers or employees? Does it come out of other budgets? How is that funded? And he as the business owner is like, "The costs, all the taxes and everything else. We're already paying for employees. I'm supposed to be paying more so people can take leave." And I was like "Honey, we have three children, and you wanted those children, I wanted those children, it is an important part of our family." And if I had not had paid leave during that time, then we would be out a year of my income. I'd been at an event with a woman from Deloitte who explained it, "You have to look at employee as a house." And so this room of the house may be their work, but this room is their exercise, and this is their mental well being, and this is that. And if you are only focused on one room of the house, the rest of it's gonna go into disrepair and then the house falls down.

24:52 EA: Right.

24:53 KW: And so if you cannot, really look at that whole employee and create a structure around that, what are you gonna do.

25:00 EA: And that house has changed so much in the past 50 years. I had a friend, a Bossed Up Boot Camp alum, come to an event recently and tell me that she had just gotten back from Iceland, and it was amazing, and she was talking about her trip at work, with her very pale and male leadership in the same conversation. And she said their gender equality is just amazing. Everyone's got parental leave, and it's been government-funded for a long time. America is really an anomaly when it comes to a developed nation, so she said the gender equality was palpable and he said, "The what?" And she said, "The gender equality." And he goes, "What?" She had to say it three times and he had never heard the term "Gender equality" put together like that. And this is the same guy who, again, he wants to keep this young woman on, she's been there for two years, she's trying to negotiate some virtual work agreement, a work while traveling type flexibility. But he said once when a male employee couldn't stay late at work, he said to his colleague, "Doesn't he have a wife?" And she was just like, "Are you kidding me? This is 2017, this is a well intentioned human being who wants to be a good boss, who proclaims all the right values." And he said, "Doesn't she have a wife?" And it just goes back to this house being very different.

26:33 KW: I'm a 40 year old women and I have a four year old daughter, and we're both not seeing... Me personally, and me on behalf of her, is not necessarily seeing the opportunity forward. Because we haven't seen a big shift in the numbers, we haven't seen a big shift in the opportunity and we certainly haven't seen a shift in terms of the perception, and acceptance around women. And yeah, that likeability and how you're supposed to act, and how you're supposed to talk. And back to, earlier in the conversation, where we worked really hard and got burn out very young, because you're always fighting some battle. And to be frank, it's... Even though we're fighting a battle, it's a lot easier for us than many of the other women in this country. And so I cannot fathom how exhausted... I can't even express how exhausted I feel just even thinking about that. And so...

27:34 EA: I don't think people know that either, because it feels like we've made progress. Major media companies are putting "Run Like a Girl" on their campaigns. We've got major women contenders, it feels like there's been some progress. But those numbers at the very top, the 18% of representation that we have in congress, the somewhere around 20% of women in the C suite across every industry. And when it comes to middle managers we've been, more than 50% of middle managers since 2010, but for those out there who think "Well, it's just a matter of time. It's just a matter of time until those top numbers budge." Yeah, no budge, no budge since what? The 80s, 90s, early 90s.

28:24 KW: But not everyone... Not all women feel that way. And I'm super open minded to all of those perspectives, because I think it's so important to hear, and to listen and to understand. And the only way we will change the conversation is if we can see, "Alright, here's what others are thinking. How do I now get in there and use their words, and use their thoughts to turn it around?"

28:47 EA: And I think that's the answer to how we actually make progress, because we don't identify with our gender first. We identify with a lot of other things first. I'm from... Just outside of Hartford Connecticut. I'm a public school kid, my whole life until college, I am middle class and I come from working class parents. My mom's a labor and delivery nurse, and we think about those defining characteristics well before gender. We might think about heritage and race well before our gender, too. So there's no women's voting block. I think we have to acknowledge the diversity of opinions that come with women. But if women don't identify as a collective identity, or as a group, and we believe that a meritocracy is alive and well in America, and that's key to the whole American dream, to the whole Horatio Alger myth, that you can pull yourself up by your boot straps. And hard work is fairly and equally rewarded. If we believe in a meritocracy, then we all become complicit in perpetuating that systemic injustice. So I think we're having this conversation right now, as a country, whether it's Black Lives Matter, talking about police brutality, talking about gender inequality, talking about native peoples and land rights.

30:10 EA: But if we do our homework and we look at the numbers, and this is where a lot of us can disagree about what those numbers belie, what theories are behind those numbers, then it becomes pretty clear that there isn't a meritocracy at work. That likeability does matter, and women who express the same kind of assertiveness that men do that helps them be seen as leaders, get seen as less likeable. So we can agree that likeability matters, especially in the workplace and on the promotion track, and if we can agree that for 30 years social scientists have found that women and power don't mix well when it comes to being seen as well liked, then it's clear that the trajectory, or that upward mobility isn't quite the same for everybody. I have a lot of Republican friends as well, it's important, I think...

31:07 KW: Sure, it sure is.

31:08 EA: To keep you on your toes and just be empathetic. I took my best friend from childhood out for a night out in Boston a couple weeks ago for her birthday, and we talked frankly about our disagreements. And I think there's more common ground there than disagreements.

31:28 KW: So you had talked... You've talked a few times about more of the, I'm saying rest and relaxation, but that is not nomenclature you use.

31:37 EA: Renewal. Yeah, sure.

31:38 KW: Renewal. Can you talk about that, because after this conversation I'm like, "I think I need some renewal."

31:43 EA: Yeah. Well there's some really cool research out there about our physiology, the way our bodies work, and the way that the modern workplace works. And I'm looking around the amazing, beautiful Ellevate/Ellevest offices here, everyone's sat at a desk with a big computer screen in front of them, that's how I spend most of my time. But holy moly, our bodies were not designed to do that, and our eyeballs were not designed to do that for eight hours a day. What's cool... And I have read a lot from Tony Schwartz on this from The Energy Project, and Arianna Huffington has done some really cool writing on these topics as well, and what's great is that if you actually... It's sort of like bio-hacking. It's how can you optimize your productivity, like we all want to, by taking a humanist approach to how your body already operates. And as it turns out, we aren't designed to be like computer programs, constantly multitasking and constantly working nonstop. We don't have a motherboard, that's just not how our bodies work. But our bodies are very good when you pair intervals of intense focus, about 90 minutes or so especially, this is the pulse that our body works at, with periods of deep relaxation and renewal.

33:11 EA: When I'm taking a break after 90 minutes of squeezing my brain for the best possible blog post, I have to stop and talk to somebody so I can feel rejuvenated. And then my body is more likely then to be ready to go, to be all fired up and recharged, if I pulse between about 90 minutes or so of concentrated effort and deep relaxation. The deeper you can go, the faster, the better, but I'm a half-hour break girl. I try to take micro-breaks on occasion but then I end up surfing Facebook or Reddit, because I don't actually feel like I wanna work. I'm just still trying to force myself on my computer. And there are some apps out there that help me stay focused and stay off of social media. I have turned all of my notifications off on my phone, which is like... I don't know how anyone survives without that. 'Cause I want to go to my phone when I decide to go to my phone, not when my phone summons me. But really, that pulse is so helpful, in terms of giving yourself a break while optimizing your personal productivity.

34:18 EA: There's new research out, I can't remember who put it out, but it was connecting something between CEOs in particular, and their extracurricular hobbies. And I think the connection was actually between those who fly, I don't know who does that, but whose hobby is flying planes for fun? But whatever. There's piloting, whatever that's...

34:40 KW: John Travolta.

34:41 EA: Yeah.

[chuckle]

34:42 EA: There's this connection between CEOs who make really good business decisions, and who have higher performance overall, and their extracurricular mastery. And to me, it's long been obvious that when I feel like a boss on the volleyball court, or when I'm doing something that I feel really good at that has nothing to do with work, that confidence, that risk tolerance, that courage, trickles right over into my professional sphere. And I just wrote about that in my Forbes column on leadership. I wrote about how to handle the long slog that is the average job search, without losing your confidence. And a big part of that is making sure that you're retaining those hobbies that make you feel like you're killing it, even when you do not feel like you're killing it at work.

35:34 KW: That is great advice. Well thank you so much for joining us today.

35:38 EA: Thank you.

35:38 KW: To our listeners, if you want to hear more from Emilie check out her Forbes column, check out Bossed Up, all great stuff. And thanks for joining us, this was great.

35:49 EA: Thank you so much for having me.


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