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Taking the Unconventional Path to Wealth Management, with Kirsten Turner

Taking the Unconventional Path to Wealth Management, with Kirsten Turner

Episode 133: Taking the Unconventional Path to Wealth Management, with Kirsten Turner

When Kirsten Turner, Senior Managing Director at RBC Wealth Management, had to pick between her family and career, she went ahead and picked both. Taking an unconventional path to wealth management, Kirsten joins us this week to talk about being a young single mother in the financial industry, the career moves she has made while having kids, and surviving the 2008 financial crisis on top of it all. On this episode, she shares the behind-the-scenes look into having “having it all,” the impact her parents had on her growing up, and creating an environment for inclusion within the workplace.

Episode Transcript

00:13 Kristy Wallace: Hello and welcome to the Ellevate podcast, this is your host, Kristy Wallace, with my co-host, Maricella Herrera. How are you doing Maricella, it's fall, why is it fall?

00:23 Maricella Herrera: It's cold. This is not even fall, this is cold.

00:27 KW: Wow and you come from a much warmer climate, so.

00:29 MH: I do, I do.

00:30 KW: And still, every time it gets cold in New York City, I question why I'm still here, but I grew up...

00:35 MH: I do too.

00:36 KW: In the Northeast, so I'm used to it.

00:37 MH: You did, you are a Jersey girl.

00:40 KW: Yeah. Proud, proud Jersey girl.


00:43 MH: Jersey girl, it's growing on me.

00:44 KW: Yeah.

00:45 MH: I must say, I had a really fun time at that festival in Asbury Park the other day, which was good. And then we had an event in Jersey City, and I realized how easy it is to get there.

00:57 KW: It is, it's very easy.

01:00 MH: And New York looks great from there.

01:02 KW: It's beautiful, right? No, it is easy and that event was really fun. It was a recent event we did with one of our corporate partners, which was great. We love working with companies that are committed to gender equality, and doing some great things around thought leadership and supporting the women within their companies. But this event was specifically about women in tech.

01:23 MH: Yeah, it was great. It was very engaged audience, lots of questions, lots of very different perspectives, which I appreciate. It was... I don't know, I love when we have different points of view in the room.

01:37 KW: Yeah. Well, we need that, right? Even if it's a point of view you don't agree with, and oftentimes that can be hard to hear. It's important, because the more we know, and the more we understand where others are coming from, the more opportunity we have to have our voice heard...

01:56 MH: Exactly.

01:56 KW: So we can really tailor our thoughts and comments and commentary in a very intentional way to help really feel that discourse.

02:05 MH: Yep.

02:06 KW: So, it can be very powerful.

02:08 MH: Great. So speaking about corporate partners, your conversation with our guest today, she is from one of our awesome partners.

02:15 KW: Oh yes. It was a great conversation. We talked a lot about what it's like to work in finance and about RBC as well, but it was just Kirsten's thoughts and her experiences and her stories resonated with me in so many ways, not just how strong she is and how passionate she is about the work she does, but around how businesses are changing. And you think back about, what it was like 10 years ago, or 20 years ago, and how the nature of business is changing, the culture is changing, but women in all allies in the workforce are a driving force behind that. And so, it was really great to talk to Kirsten and understand more the role she's playing in that and the way she's using her influence to really change the game for next generation.

03:13 MH: I love that, that's what we should all be doing really trying to use our social capital to equal the playing field and make it better for everyone who's coming up.

03:22 KW: Yep.

03:22 MH: RBC was a sponsor of our Summit last year, and I say, last year, like it was actually last year, it was this year, so they were one of our sponsors for the Summit in 2018 and one of the first companies to sign up as sponsors again for our 2019 Summit, which I'm very excited for, because we're already starting to plan it.

03:44 KW: Yeah. I cannot wait.

03:46 MH: I'm excited.

03:47 KW: That's what we can look forward to. It's cold in New York City right now, but it'll soon be Summit season for Ellevate next June. Still doing June 21st?

03:56 MH: June 21st.

03:57 KW: June 21st, 2019, New York City. Put it on your calendar. If you cannot come in person, it will be available via live stream. But, it's always my favorite event of the year.

04:08 MH: Mine too.

04:09 KW: Because I leave inspired and ready to take action, and I learn so much. I am in the DNI and equality space every day with my work, but still the voices that are on that stage and those perspectives and solutions that come about from that discourse is powerful. So, I'm excited.

04:28 MH: Yeah. I am too.

04:29 KW: And thanks to RBC, and let's get to my interview with Kirsten.


04:44 KW: Kirsten, we are so excited to have you on the Ellevate podcast today. I know that our audience will really connect with your story, and I would be honored if you would share a little bit about your journey with our listeners.

05:00 Kirsten: Absolutely. So thank you, Kristy, and I'm super excited to be here. Ellevate is such a unique and necessary organization for today's women. So I just... I love the whole concept of it. And I think my story is so many women's stories, where it's not a linear path, it's kind of a very winding path. And some would say an unconventional path, but nonetheless, it led me to be in a job and with a firm and a career that I just... I'm so happy and I get up every morning I really truly love what I do. And if you'd asked me 20 years ago to my 25-year-old self, "Would you be doing this?" I would have probably laughed myself out of the room.

05:48 Kirsten: So, I was actually born in Sydney, Australia, my parents and the whole family are from New Zealand. And in 1979 when I was seven years old my father's job brought us to Sarasota, Florida. So I was raised in Florida. At about age 16, decided I wanted to do interior design and I don't even really know where I got that from, but always loved making things beautiful. And I remember my mom went to... Went on a trip... To a safari to Africa when I was about 16, and for her birthday, I renovated her whole bedroom.


06:25 Kirsten: And so, when I graduated from high school, I got accepted to Florida State University. They have a really solid Interior Design program. I was accepted into that, went through my four years of college, and I think really, by the time I had graduated, I probably, if I was honest with myself, knew that that wasn't what I wanted to do, but that was my degree, and I had to get a job and pay the bills, so I went out and started interviewing with different architectural firms and design firms, and I ended up working with a very small architect. It was really a mom-and-pop, it was literally... He was the architect and his wife was the office manager. And they did small commercial projects, mostly assisted-living facilities.

07:12 Kirsten: So I spent the first three years, basically living in assisted-living facilities with smelly old people, [laughter] and trying to be creative with mauve and turquoise and all the different variations of that. [chuckle] And I also did like a ADA study, American Disabilities Act study for the school system in Sarasota, Florida, where I had to measure the heights of urinals and toilets and how fast the door closed and pretty mind-numbing stuff. But it sorta taught me just about how hard it was to make a living and sort of the different types of careers you can do.

07:53 Kirsten: So fast forward, I worked for a couple of different firms, after I decided that commercial wasn't really what I wanted, I did move and work for a residential designer for a few years, learned a lot from her, but it just sort of never... It never really felt like it was my path. I sort of ended up being in the same position bored at the end of the day, a little mind-numbing, I've used that word again. So, I had just had my first child, my son, and I was 27 and I thought, "I just gotta... I've gotta do something else, I have to change my path."

08:29 Kirsten: And so, I remember it was the late '90s and the Internet was really starting to come into itself and it was being more user-friendly, and so somebody suggested to me to go online and do one of those personality tests and get some feedback and some different careers that might fit with my skillsets on what I'd like to do. And so one of them was event planning for large hotels. And I thought, "Oh, that might be kind of interesting." I loved people, I loved organizing, I loved being bossy and planning things. So it just so happened that my father, who by now had left the career that he moved us to the States with and was a financial consultant with Salomon Smith Barney. And there was a lady that had just changed careers from event planning for, I think, it was the Four Seasons and she was starting out as a financial consultant.

09:29 Kirsten: So my father said, "Why don't you come in and talk to this lady and she can maybe tell you if this is a career you want? And so I did, and she said, "Oh, you don't wanna do it. It's horrible. Hours are horrible, the pay's not good." So I sort of very deflated with... Went to my dad's office and the sales manager of the branch thought that I was a new client of this young lady that was the advisor, so he went into her office, and said, "Oh, it's a new client." And she said, "No, it's John's daughter and she doesn't know what she wants to do with her life." So he comes running over and says to me, "Hey, I hear you're looking for a job. Why don't you become a financial consultant?" And...


10:07 KW: Talk about being in the right place at the right time.

10:09 Kirsten: But it was like that, yeah. And I always felt bad, because I was at the training program... We went up for three weeks of training and we're going around the room and everybody's introducing themselves, and there's people that are like, "Oh, I've dreamed about doing this, and I went to... I've got a finance degree, and an MBA," and I'm thinking, "Oh, please don't ask me about my story, 'cause it's just not as impressive." But they did, after about seven interviews got the job and really kind of had not a whole lot of ins. My dad really worked with most of the people that were friends of ours, so I didn't kind of even have that friend network or family network to go after, so I started cold calling and I would dial somewhere between 150 and 300 dials a day.

10:57 KW: Oh wow.

11:00 Kirsten: And it was horrible. It was like...

11:00 KW: Wow.

11:00 Kirsten: It was just... And I don't know what was worse, was no one answering, or people answering and yelling at you.


11:10 Kirsten: So, I sort of kind re-tooled a couple of times and I finally realized that I would do seminars. Because again, I loved educating, I liked public speaking, I was never afraid of that, so I started calling and inviting people to seminars, and it started working. And I did... I was working 10-12 hours a day and I was doing a seminar every two weeks and I was living on a credit card, and I could barely pay our mortgage. But after about three years, I looked up and I had... You know, albeit a small, but I actually all of a sudden had this practice of clients that I loved and I had all this knowledge that had come to us mostly over the last three years, and so, it was a tough three years but a very rewarding three years.

12:00 Kirsten: So, I had been asked to join a team of three more senior financial advisors. Problem was, I was getting bored again. Once you sort of had figured out how to get clients and close clients, not that it's easy, but that's the hardest part of being an advisor is getting your rhythm, getting those first clients, and if you do a good job and you don't lose the money, you can get more and more referrals.

12:27 Kirsten: So, about that time my branch manager came to me and said, "Hey, have you ever thought about going into management?" And I said, "No, you know, I don't really know, I mean... " "Do you like it?" And so, we had this conversation and I was actually pregnant with my second child. And so, he sort of said, "You know, just take this test, tap this interview, let's see how we go." Next thing I know, I passed the initial assessments, I have my child and I am flying to Atlanta, Georgia three weeks after I've had this... This is my second child. And to do this full day assessment. Smith Barney had a very structured management program, so I had to go spend from 7:30 in the morning till 5:30 in the morning doing inbox exercises, and doing mock interviews, mock conversations, all the while being graded by about four regional directors. And I hope this is not too graphic, but I was breastfeeding and so I had to bring my pump with me. And of course everybody but me in the room was a man. So the regional directors were men, the people that were interviewing me were men, the people playing the parts were men and the other three potential branch managers were men.

13:42 Kirsten: So I thought, I can't tell these people what's going on. So, there was a very nice sort of assistant that was helping with everything I said, "I just have to tell you about every three hours, I'm just gonna need a 10-minute break so I can kinda run into the bathroom [chuckle] to do what I need to do." So I'm in there sort of sounding like a cow thinking, "Oh God." It was a long day, made it through and they said, "We think you're a natural, we'd love to welcome you into the management program at Smith Barney." So that was sort of the beginning of the change. So I had to tell all my clients that I was gonna be moving into management, 'cause back then, there were not really producing branch managers like we have now at Smith Barney, you either had to be kind of a financial advisor or a manager. So, said good-bye to my clients, packed up my family, and we moved from the Sarasota, Florida to Hartford, Connecticut. And I've never lived in the North before. So that was an experience all unto itself. I had my husband who we decided would stay at home, 'cause we had a three-month-old and a five year-old, and I worked from 6:15 in the morning till somewhere between 6:00 PM and 9:00 PM at night, bringing in new trainees from all over the country.

15:00 Kirsten: They'd come and they'd stay for three weeks, and we'd teach them how to sell, and listen and open new accounts and we'd give them their financial advising number and send them on their way. Great experience. I met so many people. Unfortunately, my husband who got a drinking problem, and the drinking problem got worse, and it didn't get better, and it's spawned into a drug problem as well. And so... And we had been having some problems on and off with these issues, but it really kinda spiralled out of control. And so, at the end of the time period, I had been offered a job in Houston, Texas as a sales manager, and so I gave my husband the ultimatum of "You either pick the alcohol or you pick the family." He couldn't get rid of the alcohol so we separated. I got on a plane with now a two year old and a seven year-old, and two cats, and thought I have no idea how I could do this, but I'm gonna figure it out. So we landed in Houston and I was a sales manager for 75 Broker Branch about 45 million in revenue.

16:11 Kirsten: So we were two big floors. It was one of the flagship branches for Smith Barney in Texas, and I tried to find some local nannies, it didn't work. So I found out about an Au Pair program and I ended up having German Au Pairs that had just graduated from high school, and wanted to do a year of travel before they started university. So that was a pretty exhausting time period for me. I remember one morning running. I'm a big runner, not as much at 45, as I was back then, but running, it was like, 5:30 in the morning, it was dark. And I remember thinking to myself, "God this is just a really tough time in my life and there's gonna be a time in the future that I'm gonna look back and I'm gonna hopefully be remarried, and in a great relationship and my kids are gonna be blossoming and I'm gonna look back and go. Wow, that made you tough.

17:04 Kirsten: But for right now, you just gotta kinda put one foot in front of the other, and make it through the day. And so, I did that for about three years and then I got an offer to move to Peoria, Illinois which I had never been to nor really had ever even heard of to run a three-branch complex for Smith Barney we were just starting to get...

17:25 Kirsten: It was 2008. So, the financial crisis was more than bubbling up. It was the summer of 2008, and so I got the job packed up my family, again, I now had an extra dog, attached, so I now had a four-year-old, nine-year-old, two cats, and a dog, a dachshund, a three month-old dachshund, and we drove to... Oh and my Au Pair and we drove to Peoria, Illinois. And about a... Oh gosh, about a week after I was there... We were owned by Citigroup that was our parent company. And we...

18:00 Kirsten: Our stock priced at 97 cents inter-day, in the middle of the day. And my financial advisors came in to my office. They're going, "Kirsten"... It was a Friday afternoon. Like, "What are we gonna do?" 'cause there was rumors that JP Morgan was gonna buy us and... And I said, "You know what guys, I have no idea what we're gonna do, but what I do know is that Monday morning, we're gonna come to this office our keys are going to work, we're gonna open the door, we're gonna open our computer, the computer's going to work, the stock market's gonna open, your client accounts are gonna be there and there's gonna be clients that are gonna be... That are gonna need help."

18:36 Kirsten: "What I don't know is who are gonna be owned by. So let's not worry about what we can't control and let's focus on what we can." I still remember that conversation because it was sort of like this out-of-body experience and I'm thinking, "Man, you sound really calm." [chuckle] You are freaking out inside. [laughter] 'Cause I had... I'd always worked under somebody, I always had somebody to go to sort of say, "What should I say?" And I realized like "Nope, I'm it." I looked left and I looked right and I am the branch manager. So, very, very interesting experience. We were very tight, because it was so tough. And then two months after that, or maybe a month after that conversation, it was announced that Morgan Stanley was going to buy us in what was called a joint venture. So a lot of turmoil, a lot of turmoil a lot of turn over. My... Almost all of my managers that I had worked for, for the eight years since I'd been at Smith Barney were let go, 'cause they were consolidating. And frankly, if you had a Morgan Stanley jersey on, you had a much better chance of surviving at those higher levels then if you had a Smith Barney jersey on. So...

19:49 Kirsten: I also during that time period had started dating a gentleman that I had been friends with for quite a long time that had worked in my Houston branch as a financial advisor, and I was now living in Peoria. He was living in Houston, and I was sort of going, "What do I do now?" And my whole career up until then I had put my career first and I put it before my marriage, I put it before my children I'm not proud of that but it was a fact. And so I was sort of faced with this decision, Am I gonna potentially take a step back, in my career or sabotage my career to move back to Houston to be with this gentleman that I am head over heels in love with, but may or may not work out? And I've got these children and I'm the bread winner. And so I ultimately decided to do it. I called my boss in Illinois, and I said, "I'd like to go back to Houston, and I know I may not have this level of a job but I'll do anything. If I can work for the combined company and I can go back to Houston, I'd like to do that."

20:57 Kirsten: And so they were great, they gave me sort of a complex sales manager role, I moved back to Houston. I ended up marrying the gentleman who's still my husband. We got pregnant, and when I was about eight months pregnant, they promoted me to run a very big branch in downtown Houston and I would have... [laughter] I literally waddled into this branch and I can imagine what these 40 male financial advisors were thinking. Like, "Oh my God, what do we have here?" And you know what? That was when that was probably when I really decided that I'm just gonna do it my way, and I'm not gonna apologize for wanting to be a mom or wanting to have a baby or wanting to be a branch manager, I'm just gonna do it my way, and I don't think I thought about, "I wanna be a role model, or I wanna help other people see that they can do it." But that ended up being kinda this cool by-product, because I think for so long for women it was believed you either have a career, or you have a family. And so I was sort of unknowingly trying to do it both.

22:15 Kirsten: So I did, I had my third child, I took seven-weeks off, which was the longest time I'd ever taken off with any of my children, it was wonderful. I came back, I ran the branch for about three years. The Morgan Stanley culture was very, very different than the Smith Barney culture. And it was becoming more and more apparent to me that I was raised in the Smith Barney culture, and I really... I thrived more in that type of a culture. And so I started sort of... I was 37-38 at the time and I knew I probably didn't wanna spend the rest of my career at Morgan Stanley. So I started putting some feelers out. We didn't really wanna move again. We were in Houston, Texas for about a year. I just... There was nothing that I could find and I made a promise to myself that I was going to run to something and that I would not run from something which sounds really great, and really principal driven, but it's really tough. [chuckle] Because there's not always that great job to run to. And I'd almost given up.

23:21 Kirsten: And an old Regional Director of mine out of the blue, calls me up and said, "Hey, RBC Wealth Management is looking for someone to run the state of Florida. I know you don't wanna move again but I also know you have roots in Florida. Would you take this gentleman's call?" And I said, "Sure, I'll take his call, but I'm probably not gonna take the job." And so six months later, my family and I moved to Florida to work for RBC Wealth Management, and that was in November of '13. And the entire state of Florida did less revenues than my one branch in Morgan Stanley, that I was running.

24:00 Kirsten: So that was my second sort of of big risk. I'm not a... People say I'm a risk taker, but I really don't view myself as one. I'm a very calculated risk taker, so I've gotta make sure that my upside is way bigger and better than my downside. And I just didn't really know. What I did know was it was a very under-developed market, it was a big, big market. My predecessor hadn't done any recruiting or any growth, so I thought I've got a lot of more upside albeit risk than downside. So when I got here, the complex did $27 million. I'm gonna end my fifth year in November, and we will be annualizing about $58 million.

24:52 KW: Wow.

24:52 Kirsten: So we've more than doubled it. We've taken our average financial advisor from doing about $460,000 in production to almost a million dollars in production. Yeah, so that sort of brings me up to where I am now.

25:07 KW: So there's so many different themes and insights I heard from your story. Certainly just... First and foremost, talking about the nature of being a woman in the workforce and maternity leave and breast feeding and some of those challenges and how we manage that. And when you hear that story feels overwhelming like, "Wow, how did you do all that? That is unbelievable." But hearing you tell it, it's very obvious that you just made things happen. The question's always like, "How do you do it all?" And it's like, "Well, you have to so you do it. And you just keep pushing forward. So where does that strength come from?

25:54 Kirsten: I know it's funny because I don't... So it comes from my parents. No question. My mom was a tough cookie, I lost her in 2012 to MS and she was a tough cookie, she was a trailblazer she was the first female Commodore in our Sailing Club when I was growing up, and still the only female... That was in 1988, and there's never been one since. So she taught me that you can do and say and be anything, just be true to yourself. My dad, I was the first, and I think he just obviously knew I wasn't a son, but he raised me as if I was a son. There was never, never any talk in our household about, "Oh, you're a girl, so you should be a nurse or a teacher." Never. And it was always like "That was good, but you can do better, that was good, but you can do better, I know you can." I sailed competitively, which is a very strategic sport. And so my dad would be out on the water and when I finished a race, we'd kinda do a break down, and he'd go, "Okay, you came in second, why didn't you come in first?" "Well 'cause I missed this lift on the water."

27:11 Kirsten: He's like, "Yep, you should have seen it coming, you gotta learn to read the water." So when I was growing up, it was painful 'cause I was like, "Just let me be a kid, leave me alone." But I look back on it now and it was so important, because what they... What my mom taught me is you can do anything. Now my dad taught me is, even though you've done good, always self-reflect on what could you do to do better, what could you do to do different. And then I, I believe in a higher power I don't know that it's... I won't label it, but from a very young age, I have felt that if you listen to that higher power that inner self, you know what your capacity is, and you know where your path is. I think so many people are afraid to listen to that in our voice, or that higher power and they don't have as much success as they are deserve it of. Because they don't try it. And I read an article years ago and it was talking about men versus women, and getting positions and getting promotions. And what it said is that men will apply for a position that they feel that they have about 60% of the skill sets, women will not apply for a position unless they feel that they have at least 90 to 100% of the skill sets.

28:41 Kirsten: And for some reason that article really resonated with me, and I thought, "You know what, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna go for it. And if I get it, I'll figure out how to do it." And when I left my first husband, I said to myself, "Life is not a dress rehearsal. You do not get another chance at this." And so I've just made myself a promise that I would never regret... I might regret something I did, but I'm never gonna regret something that I didn't do. I'm always gonna go for it.

29:11 KW: Yeah, that's powerful advice. Now, given just the power you have going on that theme power in the workplace and as a leader, how are you taking steps to continue to evolve the workplace and to really create an environment of inclusion?

29:33 Kirsten: So thank you for that question, because I think it's probably the most important question. And we've yet to sort of fully solve it, but I believe that in order to have diversity and inclusion you have to get the majority invested in what we're trying to accomplish. So, I spend... I don't need to educate the women on what our issues are, 'cause guess what they know, but finding a way.

30:00 Kirsten: To educate the men and the leaders, which in our organization as in most organizations in the financial services industry are white men, and getting them to understand it in a non-threatening way.

30:14 Kirsten: And so one of the things I've done is a lot of work on what is the business reason for wanting more diversity in the workplace and it statistically been proven, that companies with 30% diversity women, minorities, on boards and senior leaderships have higher profitability and higher productivity than organizations that don't. And a lot of European countries, including Germany, under Angela Merkel's leadership have mandated that public companies have 30% female leadership. So, I've done a lot of work with my divisional boss as well, as the other divisional bosses I'm trying to educate them on why it's really important that we have these leadership roles and also educating them that in order to do that, because there's not... There's just not a large enough pool, at my level, to go out and recruit from other organizations.

31:15 Kirsten: We have to homegrown it. And so we have to homegrown it from starting with trainees, making them financial advisors, making them branch directors, and only then, can they kind of become complex directors. Because what I have seen so often is a woman or a minority will get a job, because they're a woman or a minority, not because they're the best candidate. And what happens is we set them up for failure, and then they fail because they're not equipped for their job. And then we go op! See, women can't be complex directors. And I think that's what's happened over the last 20 years, which is why our industry, in particular, has not grown our female advisor or leadership workforce. But I think that number one, is really kind of getting the guys involved and I think number two is empowering the women to have the confidence to do it, our way. And not... A good friend of mind Audrey Miller-Heckmann she's a coach and she was an advisor and she talks about being a peacock in a penguins world. And she says, "Don't try to be a penguin when you're a peacock 'cause you're stuffing your feathers behind you and you've got your pretty head gear is stuffed down and you just end up looking like a really ugly penguin, so stop and put your feathers out and be a peacock."

32:41 Kirsten: And on the call I was doing yesterday, one of the women thanked me because she started wearing skirts to work and I almost fell off my chair, I said, "Do you mean you haven't been wearing skirts? She says "No, I always wear pant suits because I don't want the male advisors to think that I'm not dressed appropriately." I was like, "Girl put on your skirt, put on your heels. It's okay to look like a woman." So I think really changing the culture in stopping to pretend that we're the same and embracing our differences and embracing the fact that when you've got different view points in different lenses in a meeting, you come up with better more creative decisions than if you have everybody that looks the same.

33:28 KW: Yeah, I would absolutely agree with that, and appreciate and recognize how important it is to have leaders like you that are raising those issues and having those conversations and supporting others and, and really leveraging the apparent influence you have in the workplace and in business to create change. So Kirsten really appreciate you joining us today on the Ellevate Podcast, for sharing your story and lessons learned. This has been truly inspiring to me and it's been really great talking to you.

34:05 Kirsten: Thanks Kristy, and back to you and thank you for again for all the work that you and Ellevate are doing. I think we just... Keeping the momentum going is the most important thing we can do, so happy to help that momentum.

34:20 KW: Thanks so much for listening to Ellevate, if you like what you hear, help a girl out, subscribe to the Ellevate Podcast on iTunes, give us five stars and share your review. Also don't forget to follow us on Twitter at Ellevate N-T-W-K. That's Ellevate Network, and become a member. You can learn all about membership and all the great things that Ellevate Network is doing, at our website, That's E-L-L-E-V-A-T-E Network dot com. And special thanks to our producer, Catherine Heller, she rocks, and to our voice over artist, Rachel Griesinger, thanks so much, and join us next week.