Breadwinning Women, with Bethanie Baynes
Episode 136: Breadwinning Women, with Bethanie Baynes
After a start in the photography industry, Bethanie Baynes, Director of Strategic Partnerships at Google, realized she wanted to be in the fast-paced tech world, making her way to the executive level at Google. On this episode, she talks about ageism at work, the pressure of being an ideal mother, and how her experiences inspired her to use her platform to uplift other women. Bethanie also shares how masculinity and femininity are defined in a capitalist society, gender roles and dynamics within her own relationship, and the perils of “momsplaining.”
00:13 Kristy: Hello and welcome to the Ellevate Network Podcast. This is your host Kristy Wallace with my co-host, Maricella Herrera. You are wearing a fantastic shirt today, Maricella.
00:24 Maricella: Thank you. I had...
00:25 Kristy: That's wearing your values.
00:27 Maricella: It is wearing my values. "Nevertheless, She Persisted" is on my t-shirt today.
00:31 Kristy: Yeah.
00:32 Maricella: I hadn't worn it in a while and I was very happy when I saw it in my closet.
00:36 Kristy: Yeah. I do a presentation on your professional brand, and part of it is, which I struggle with talking about this, and the best way to talk about it is your external appearance. And it's not just the clothes you wear, but it's the non-verbal communication that comes through in many different ways. And one example I always give is, and I'll tell you I struggle with this because there's so much unconscious bias that is attached to how people look, that we need to recognize that that happens. But then it's like, "How do we change that," instead of being, "Well, you should dress a certain way because that's the norm," right? That's what I struggle with. But anyway, part of it is, I talk about tattoos because I wear my values on my arm. I have a tattoo with my family's names or initials, but you just got a new tattoo and I know it's very meaningful to you. And can you share a little bit what it's all about?
01:35 Maricella: Yeah, I got two new tattoos. I got a new tattoo about two months ago and I just got one this week when the podcast is airing. The new, the one I got a few months ago is actually extremely meaningful. It's the little prince living his asteroid, which is "The Little Prince" is one of my favorite books and I think the message of that story and the messages in that story are so powerful whatever your age. So I love it. And that reminds me of those values and of those things, like there are things you cannot see with your eyes and just with your heart. And the other part of it is that what people don't know is Saint-Exupery was married to a woman from El Salvador and the little prince's little asteroid filled with volcanoes is somewhat reminiscent of El Salvador. It is based on the country I'm from. So for me, it's also about leaving home. So it's a very meaningful tattoo. Another one I got is a Tuberose flower, which is also a reminder of my childhood. I guess I'm a little homesick. [chuckle]
02:47 Kristy: Yeah, that's understandable. I mean so much of our identity is, for better or worse, is where we grew up and the influences that were around us during that time.
02:58 Maricella: Yeah.
03:00 Kristy: Also on the notion of tattoo, my guest today, Bethanie Baynes is... She's so cool. Actually, I had a really good time talking to her. It's gonna come through in the interview. You'll get the gist of that, that we get along a lot and we were connected by a mutual friend. So it's all about the network, work the network. It opens up opportunities. But Bethanie and I actually have the same tattoo or a very similar one.
03:27 Maricella: That's so funny.
03:28 Kristy: It was totally... And we didn't know, it was unexpected, but we each have hearts on our inner wrists.
03:36 Maricella: Oh, I love it!
03:37 Kristy: Yes. [chuckle] And our conversation really centers around this notion of work-life integration and division of responsibilities in the home and how do we break out of the traditional gender norms around that. There's so much research on women, the unpaid work at home and bearing the brunt of their responsibilities. And so much of the work-life balance discussion is aimed at women and not aimed at all caregivers.
04:07 Maricella: Right.
04:08 Kristy: There's a lot that has to change there and Bethanie is committed to making that happen. So, she's been doing a lot of great thought leadership around just the dynamics within the family and how that needs to shift. And so, it was a great conversation.
04:22 Maricella: I can't wait to hear it.
04:23 Kristy: Yeah. Well, I hope you all enjoy it. Thanks so much to our listeners and thanks to everyone who wrote in last week about our request on how we talk about current events in the workplace. Your responses really were meaningful to me and to Maricella and we enjoyed reading it. So, if you have other thoughts, always feel free to reach out to us at email@example.com or send us a tweet, EllevateNtwk on Twitter. Thanks so much and we'll see you here next week. And now enjoy my conversation with Bethanie.
05:07 Kristy: Bethanie, thank you so much for joining us today on the Ellevate Podcast. It's really fun to have you here. So, you and I first connected quite some time ago through the Power of Networks and someone I know, you know, and she was a matchmaker and I'm really happy she connected us because you're doing some really interesting things. I cannot wait for this conversation. I've got tons of things to talk to you about. So, we'll get started. First, as we often do on the Ellevate Podcast, I would love to just hear a little bit about your story and how you got to where you are today.
05:40 Bethanie: Sure. So I am an East Coast girl through and through. I grew up in Connecticut and kind of got an adventure for beating my own path pretty early, decided when I was 17 years old that I wanted to live in a city and I never wanted to live anywhere else. I grew up in a very rural area, so I was very attracted to cities, went to school in Boston, decided to do a study abroad program and picked the first city that was on the list, which was Alicante, Spain, given it starts with an A. It was the first one on the list, and didn't speak a lick of Spanish and decided to move out there for a study abroad, stayed there for two years. Much to my parents' happiness, decided to return and finish out my degree, and then said, "I will never move to New York." However, I moved to New York as soon as I graduated and planned to stay for six months and that was in 1999. [chuckle] I'm still living in New York.
06:37 Kristy: So...
06:39 Bethanie: Flash forward a couple of decades. Firmly planted here in Brooklyn, New York, I started a career in photography. So I was really into photography as an art through college, very quickly realized I needed to get a real job when I moved to New York, and started working in the photo industry pretty much before the photo industry went digital. So that was really interesting because there was a big... There's a huge question in photography as to whether or not it's an art or a science, and I was kind of in the business at the stage where it was whether or not it was going to be film or digital. And I saw the two companies that I worked for, one of whom I think is out of business, the other was bought up by Getty, which is a big image stock house, just didn't believe in digitizing images. They didn't believe in e-commerce. They didn't believe in the internet. So, at that time, it was very surprising to see that I could see the whole shift in the movement of the industry and this company wasn't keeping up. So that actually attracted me to a little unknown company in the valley called Google and I have been working for Google for almost 15 years. And I joined mostly because I wanted to get involved in tech and I wanted to get involved in a company that was staying ahead of the curve. I also happened to read an article that they gave away free ice cream on Fridays.
08:04 Kristy: And you were like, "Oh, sure."
08:04 Bethanie: It was like, "I'm done!" Yeah. Just sign me up. And luckily my husband, who was my boyfriend at the time, convinced me to take the interview very seriously. He's like, "Do you understand what this is?" I'm like, "No, but there's Ben & Jerry truck that pulls up every Friday and they get free ice cream!" and my fate was sealed. So I joined Google in 2004. We actually left New York for a couple of years, picked up, drove across country, lived in San Francisco and I started in our AdWords division, which was like our online kind of an operational group, but it was really fun days. It was super early. We had no idea what it was gonna become and just kind of getting in at the ground floor with a company like that and seeing it over the past decade and a half and how it's evolved into the massive organization that it is and just trying to really maintain the culture throughout such a fast growing business. And then, in 2006, I decided I wanted to be closer to family and my husband and I were married. We started thinking about having our own kids. So, we moved back to New York and we've been here ever since and we now have an 11-year-old son and a six-year-old daughter and my favorite child, which is my three-year-old Goldendoodle.
09:25 Bethanie: My dog. And, yeah. And we're just here in Brooklyn and I continue to be at Google as an executive in our ad tech business, and my husband is a retired songwriting stay-at-home dad. There's a lot in that.
09:40 Kristy: Yeah.
09:42 Kristy: There is. And I have a million questions around that because I think... And I'm gonna go back to some of the earlier days there because you said something that really resonated with me, which is you moved from photography to tech, which for many of our listeners, we're always thinking about how does one experience translate into a different industry or a different experience, but what stuck with me about your story is you noticed within your photography experience the lack of innovation, like there was something that stood out to you, this kind of push and pull between digitizing photography and what that would be. And so, then you move to a company that's at the forefront of innovation and how you identify something that, personally for you, is missing in that career experience and how do you find someone that really embodies it? Was that what you were thinking at the time or was it just really the free ice cream?
10:38 Bethanie: Yeah, well... [chuckle] I would love to think I thought about it as eloquently as you just stated it. And I think in many ways I feel like some of our careers, it seems like an accident at the time and then in hindsight, you're like, "Oh, this is all part of that movement." But you're actually, what you're talking about, is reminding me of a very recent experience that I'll share. I had been in my team and in my area of Google for nine years, not had, but have been, and come March I just got to the point where I was like, "Oh my God, I need to do something new," like I really appreciate being an expert in this, but I just feel like I need to grow. I feel like I wanna really double down on this type of activity in my day-to-day.
11:26 Bethanie: And so I embarked on a few months journey of trying to find a new role within Google and I did in fact find a new role that literally checked every box. I had thoughtfully prescribed that this is what I want my day to look like, this is how I want it to do, this is the type of purview I want, this is the work I wanna have, this is the team, the location, everything. And then, ultimately, I did some due diligence and it wasn't the right move, and what I learned so recently over the past couple of months is that it's more important who you're doing something with than what you're doing. And that was a huge career lesson for me that I'm still processing.
12:05 Bethanie: So I think when I think back to my move to Google and when I made that change for myself, I don't think I was as cognizant of why I was attracted to that company at that time, but once I became immersed in the culture and in that environment of youth and innovation and a platform that wasn't yet defined and the ability to trial things and be comfortable with that without having an entire society and art world get upset with you, which may be a different story now, but at the time was really freeing. And so, I don't know if it was... I think life's lessons are as much about laying out your path, but also reflecting on what kind of motivated you to get there.
12:52 Kristy: Yeah. Do you feel like the grown-up now at Google?
12:57 Bethanie: Yes [chuckle] So, when I started there, I think I was a whopping 27 and I was called the old married. So, there was a group of three or four women of us who were all married and we were... 'Cause we were a bunch of like new college grads who basically just left Stanford campus and probably still lived with their parents and then just came into Google. So we were definitely on the older side at that point. But this year's Christmas party was a big aha moment for me when I saw this sweet woman on our broader team and she came up to me and she said, "God, I just wanna be like you when I grow up." And I was like, "That's my cue that it's time to leave it, I think."
13:36 Bethanie: "This party is over for me." So, I do feel like the grown-up in many ways, but I think, more seriously, I... So my entire time working at Google, I never reported into a working mom. So my entire time of being a parent, I've been a Googler. And so for 11 years there I didn't really see a ton of examples that I felt were tangible to me of women doing it well. And so I really take a ton of pride in, and there's more of us now, but a ton of pride in being able to mentor and just support women who are either starting on that journey or thinking about the journey or struggling through it. So, while I feel like the grown-up, I really enjoy it. I enjoy being able to encourage women to continue in their careers and still think about their families and realize that this is a marathon, not a sprint. There's good days and bad days on both sides of it, so I don't know that I had somebody telling me that at that stage.
14:39 Kristy: No, and that's so critically important. We've heard... I can't tell you... So, I've heard from women who have said, and there's research that supports this, that they lessened their accelerated track of careers or... I'm not saying that the right way, but they sort of pulled back on their careers because said, "Oh, well, I will one day have children and so no need to go all out right now, because then I'm gonna have kids and it will do around my track," or, "I can't do it all." No matter what topic I'm speaking on when I'm out there, and events, the [15:18] ____ question I get is, "How do you do it all?" And...
15:21 Bethanie: Then they never ask men that.
15:23 Kristy: No. [chuckle] But I mean the answer is you don't.
15:26 Bethanie: Right.
15:27 Kristy: And you're okay with that, right?
15:28 Bethanie: Yeah.
15:29 Kristy: Just as in your career, you have to say, "Okay, what are the priorities? How are we gonna fit this in? How do we delegate? What can you let go?" It's you making those decisions and it's the same in life too. I mean, it's just... If the expectation is that you'll do it all and do it all perfectly, then it's gonna be a really tough time because you won't succeed.
15:52 Bethanie: Yeah, and you'll drive yourself crazy in the meantime. And I think what you're touching on too is this... There's this idealist vision of motherhood and it's that you've got the perfectly like coiffed snacks for break time when it's like a bunch of three-year-olds that are just gonna tear it apart in the middle of the playground. We put this pressure on ourselves, whether it's Pinterest pressure or pressure because we're looking at maybe generations before where there was more time, there was less distraction. You have the financial pressures of being a working mom. A lot of this is guilt too 'cause it's, in many ways, like I wanna be the one to pick my kids up from school. I wanna be the one that's organizing the birthday parties. But most of the time, it's like party in a box and let's go to BounceU and I'll just write a check, you know?
16:49 Bethanie: But I'm still there, but that's how I do it. And I think the more that we forgive ourselves kind of this definition of perfection or this definition in everything, work and home, the more that we can achieve. And I think it's not an all or nothing. It's not can you have it all. I don't have it all. I actually don't want it all. I want some things at this time and some things at that time and I've had times in my career where things are not going well, like a reorg that didn't work out in my favor or something. And the impact that that can have on my confidence, my value and then you bring that stuff home and you really have to realize, like I said, the marathon thing, like you're gonna have miles that just are impossible to get through but you just keep persevering, and I think it's about balance. I think it's about forgiveness.
17:43 Bethanie: I think it's about delegation and I think it's also about talking to your kids as they get older about what is and isn't working for you in terms of your responsibilities. I remember so vividly this conversation with my son. I can't even remember how old he was, but I was losing my mind at the end of a really busy day. I knew I had to get them to bed and then do a bunch of contractual red lines and I'm like, "Just go to sleep." And they did the pop... We call it the pop-up where they just keep coming out of the room and you're like, "Oh my God." So, I just lost it and I was the screaming mommy and I'm like, "Just go to bed." And he was like, "I just want you to be happy, Mommy." I'm like, "Then go to bed." [chuckle] And I felt so bad about it once he finally fell asleep and I had this massive guilt. And then I woke up the next morning and I looked at him and I said, "You know it'd be really creepy if mommy was happy all the time."
18:39 Bethanie: Like, "If I was just walking around with a smile on my face all the time, would that seem normal to you?" And he was like, "No, that would be pretty creepy." I'm like, "Okay, so sometimes Mommy's gonna yell. Sometimes Mommy's gonna lose her temper." Like sometimes... These things are gonna break or at work, like sometimes a project is gonna be imperfect, or sometimes a deadline is gonna be missed. It's okay. Also, the huge caveat on this, I am not a heart surgeon, like what I do is not actually going to have massive consequences that really affect the premise of someone's life. So I have that piece of it too, but I just think it's keeping perspective and keeping yourself honest and doing things that you identify are valuable to you both as a career woman and a mom.
19:23 Kristy: And having those honest conversations in the workplace with your partner, with your employees, with your kids. Just like you said, I actually did something similar last week. I was taking my son to camp, and I said, I was like, "I'm sorry, I've been a bad mom lately," or, "I just have been really on edge." And he was like, "No, you've been fine." He's like, "But except the other day when I asked you for food and you screamed at me and said, 'We have no food,'" he's like, "That was a little upsetting." [chuckle] And I just felt... I was like, "Oh." I'm like, "Well, we had no food." "I know. We had nothing. We have nothing! I'm telling you, we have no food!"
20:06 Kristy: And he just... That was the thing that stuck with him and then he put his arm around me. It's like, "It's okay." I'm like, "Alright."
20:12 Bethanie: That's awesome.
20:13 Kristy: So clearly you're a role model for women in the workplace, but what are the other ways that you're taking action. How are you being a changemaker?
20:21 Bethanie: Yeah. So I am super vocal and I think potentially to a fault, like I'm just a very candid, very vocal person, and I think in my organization specifically, any time I see or think of something that I think could potentially be an unconscious bias or a non-inclusive conversation or circumstance, I'll speak up. And it doesn't mean that I am making it about me or that I should be added to this meeting or I should go to this event, but hopefully, it's more about just raising the awareness of like, "Have you thought about this?" and just kind of putting that thought process. So that's more of the less visible ways, I think, like I just love rallying communities, so I do a lot of programming. Google does a lot of programming where we'll bring in authors or we'll bring in panelists to talk about movies or books, etcetera. Then I tend to gravitate toward a lot of women empowering stories.
21:29 Bethanie: So, things like the film "Equity" that was written and acted and produced all women came in. We did a panel with them and I thought that was really an important message, particularly in the finance industry which is an industry like tech in terms of its inequalities. And so, I try to do a lot of those types of events just to start a conversation and to make sure that there's space for those conversations to happen. And then another thing that I'm starting to do very recently is kind of this rallying cry amongst breadwinning women. So currently in the United States, 42% of the households in America with children under the age of 18 are financially led by women. That includes single moms, but about a quarter of all couples have women out-earning the men. So, if you think about that huge shift in our society and what that means ultimately to...
22:30 Bethanie: If you couple it with the pay gap, if you couple it with the opportunity gap, if you couple it with slower rates of promotion, all of these things that can happen throughout our careers, it's going to have a huge impact on our society and how we can educate our children, which neighborhoods we can live in, what types of vacations we can afford, what types of colleges we can send our children to. It'll have a trickle impact to all of these things if we don't get the quality piece right. So I'm starting to galvanize that effort internally at Google and I'm hoping that we bring some of these learnings outside of Google to the tech community and other communities at large because it's an important conversation. We see this trend across the nation in rural and metropolitan areas, across races, all of these things. So, it's a very near and dear topic to my heart.
23:20 Kristy: And do you think that our society is ready for this? And I ask this because... And I agree wholeheartedly and I applaud you for really driving the thought leadership and the awareness and the discussion around this because at the core of that discussion is bias and inequality if you believe that women can't have as much opportunity to be breadwinners as men and play that role. But there was a study recently that compared the US census data and the federal tax IRS data where in the census, which is self-reported, many women in situations where they were the breadwinner underreported their income and the men over-reported.
24:12 Bethanie: I saw that.
24:12 Kristy: And then they compared it to the tax returns and it showed that women are the breadwinners, but were, I don't know, embarrassed to talk about it or trying to change that narrative in some way. Why do you think that is?
24:25 Bethanie: I think it's... First of all, I loved that article because it was so insightful into what the problem is. The problem is not whether or not women can... Look, sorry, the broader problem is whether or not women should be equal in the ranks of men in companies and in earning power 100% obviously I believe, but the question of, "Is our society ready for this?" I don't think so. I think there's a big conversation that needs to happen around how we define masculinity and femininity. And I think in a capitalistic society that is predominantly led by men in every faction... You look at entertainment, you look at government, you look at corporations. You need to rethink what it means to provide for your family. Is providing just a financial piece? Is there emotional support? Is there logistical support? How do we value those things?
25:40 Bethanie: I think in that same article that I read, Salary.com does an annual review of the family savings of a stay-at-home mom. They don't do this for a stay-at-home dad. My guess is it's going to be significantly more. I think it's around 160,000 for a stay-at-home mom, so whatever the 20%, 30% premium on that is for men. But that's how our society equates value. Just in the effect that we even have that number that Salary.com puts out, that's how we define the value. And I think in traditionally male-led households, that's a scenario that people are very comfortable with. They understand. In our rules, for example, it's getting better the more I talk about this, but the first couple of years that we were basically this flip family where I was... My family, we were double earners until about five years ago, but my husband always worked from home.
26:45 Bethanie: And so he was handling a lot more of the logistics or school pickup or household management, whatever it may be. So it was a very natural role for him to get into and he actually... His company went into bankruptcy and he got laid off and we looked at his earning potential in his industry. We looked at my earning power with my role, and it was just a math question. And we were just like, "Okay, you're it." And I was like, "You cool with this?" He's like, "I'm cool with it." "You cool with it?" I'm like, "Great." That's when we started to realize how uncool so many people were with it. People worried that I would be too stressed or that he would be too bored. I don't think I'm any more or less stressed than generations of men that come before me with my financial responsibilities for my family. My husband is like... We always say he is a professional-only child. He has so many hobbies. So he's a songwriter. He cooks all the time. He surfs. He skateboards. He boxes every day.
27:43 Bethanie: He's like... He has so many hobbies. He's just an artist. He's creative, like he never identified or had his identity wrapped up in his career. So those assumptions that were projected upon us of how we would feel in these roles couldn't be further from the truth. But not every day, right? Like there's days where I'm like, "Yeah, I'm super stressed and I don't know how... Like I'll be working till I die." And then there's days where he's just like, "I would like to go out and talk to more adults than I do." We're gonna have good days and bad days just like anyone would have, but what I've seen from the society, comfort with this is surprising. There's so many different facets that come at specifically... So if we take from my husband's point of view, things like, we call it "momsplaining" where when you get that unwanted advice on parenting from the old lady on the street or something, we know what that feels like.
28:39 Bethanie: But when you're the dad, it comes like exponential of like, "Oh my God, let me help you. You don't know what sippy cup flow you should have on that," or, "You don't know it's 20 degrees out." I can't tell you how many people have stopped my husband, like, "She should have a hat on." He's like, "Have you tried to wrangle that head into a hat?" Like, "I know I have a hat on." Like, "I know it's cold." Like, "We're just not having that fight today." But he has these moments where he's always... And his favorite thing is just like, "Move along! Running a different kind of program here. Just thank you for your concern. Keep moving." Like... But it's just so, he... It's so classic. He has so many funny stories of that.
29:17 Bethanie: And then the other thing is it's a massive double standard where even close friends will be like, "Man, you got it made. You won the lottery. I wish I were you." And you would never say that to a stay-at-home mom. You're always like, "I don't know how you do it. Hardest job there is. I hope he's treating you well. You better get a big Christmas present this year," like it's a totally different conversation and approach. And so, I think as a society, we're not ready, but if we're at the point where it's truly almost 25% of couples, we're gonna have to be. And so my goal is to get this conversation going because we have to make sure that we are supporting the families of our society. The second that breaks down, we are just completely screwed as a nation.
30:09 Kristy: And you could argue, or you are arguing too, which is we're not gonna be able to move forward unless we change more of the archaic and wrong expectations and standards, right? So if you want to really move forward in gender parity, we also have to talk about the norms for men. And it's okay to not be the breadwinner or to be home or to take parental leave or all these other stereotypes that had traditionally been applied to women, why can't we all have equal opportunity for the lives that we wanna live and the dynamic and the situations that work for our family?
30:54 Bethanie: And I think you're hitting on an important point because I do think... Listen, I caveat all this that we are obviously in a fortunate position that we can have one person stay home and afford our lifestyle. I am in a fortunate position that my husband is happy with this, that this was a choice and he's happy with it. And I think there are probably a lot of men that would like this role, but they can't admit it, or they don't feel comfortable that they would be happy or fulfilled there. And so, how do we provide more of a road map or more of a way that this is an empowering choice? It's just so many women say... This one woman, we were just like, "God." We lived in the same apartment building and she's like, "Your husband is so good with your kids." [chuckle] I'm like, "They are his kids too." And she's like, "I can't even trust my husband to heat up a hot dog." I'm like, "He's a software engineer." Like, "I'm certain he knows how to cook a hot dog."
31:55 Kristy: How to cook a hot dog.
31:57 Bethanie: But the more you say that, the more, A, it belittles him, or it gives him a total pass of like, "Fine, I don't have to do anything. She's got this all." It's like there's this weird control angle of it too, but it's endless material of how ridiculous some of this stuff is. And then you just have this whole internal dialogue that you're not sharing with them at all and you... I don't know about you. I have these whole arguments in my head.
32:21 Kristy: Oh, all day. All day, every day.
32:25 Kristy: And I don't always win, which is the problem. But yeah.
32:28 Bethanie: Yeah. Your own argument with yourself.
32:30 Kristy: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like walking down the street. And I'm sure you can see it on my face or maybe my hands start going. I'm getting really into it, but yes, like straight up and here it is.
32:39 Bethanie: Yeah. Once your lips start moving, that's when you should just check yourself 'cause that's when you're the crazy lady that's walking down the street talking to yourself, which I'm guilty of too.
32:50 Kristy: Yeah. Well, this has been great. Thank you for being here. Thanks for your candor and honesty.
32:55 Bethanie: Absolutely.
32:55 Kristy: It's just been so nice to talk to you. And everything that you're doing, not just around women in tech and providing inspiration, but really disrupting this societal status quo around what family should look like, what gender dynamics and pay, and in the workplace, and at home and all of that. We need to break it down to rebuild new dynamics and new expectations that will lead us into a better society and a better world. And you're at the forefront of that. So thank you.
33:30 Bethanie: Thank you. That was very well put. Thank you so much.
33:36 Kristy: Thanks so much for listening to Ellevate. If you like what you hear, help a girl out. Subscribe to the Ellevate Podcast on iTunes. Give us five stars and share your review. Also, don't get to follow us on Twitter at EllevateNtwk. That's Ellevate Network. And become a member. You can learn all about membership and all the great things that Ellevate Network is doing at our website, www.ellevatenetwork.com. That's E-L-L-E-V-A-T-E network.com. And special thanks to our producer, Katherine Heller. She rocks, and to our voiceover artist, Rachel Griesinger. Thanks so much and join us next week.
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