How to Empower Women to Pay Less and Negotiate More

Online • October 31, 2017

Neonbrand 258966

Tuesday, October 31, 2017
12:00 PM - 1:00 PM EDT

Online hosted by ReadyTalk

Tuesday, October 31, 2017 12:00 PM - 1:00 PM EDT

The gender wage gap, the lack of funding for women entrepreneurs, and the “pink tax” levied on many products and services makes it challenging for women to accumulate wealth at the same rate as men.


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00:01 Kathleen: Thank you very much, I am so excited to be here today and to be presenting a jam session on a topic that's near and dear to my heart "Women and Money," and the new work that I've done, Breaking Money Silence. I wanted to think about when I was writing this book, when I was sitting in my office in Vermont writing this book, one of the things I was really excited to do was to come out and speak to groups of women, who I felt, number one, could really benefit from knowing about Money Silence, and number two could really lead the charge on breaking money silence. So today, we're gonna talk about both those things. And so, I have a lot of content, so let me get started. There is a nice, little picture of me and my two websites, is actually a website that is for the general public and is more for advisors or bankers or people in the financial industry.

00:55 Kathleen: So, let start by laying the groundwork for everyone who's listening in, who's not familiar with this work of breaking money silence. What is money silence and why is it so important for all of us to know about it, but certainly for women to know about it? And so, when I'm talking about money silence what I'm talking about or the definition that I tend to use is that discomfort that many of us feel when talking about money, not just the dollars and cents, but our thoughts, feelings, emotions, attitudes about money. And what we find is that a majority of the population, in some ways, finds talking about finances and personal finances very uncomfortable. This is a phenomenon that happens in the United States, but it also happens globally in most countries, and it's been around for centuries. So it really is something when I discovered why is it that we talk about everything, we talk about our meals, the relationships we're in, we post things on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, we share so much about so many things, but we still struggle to talk about money.

02:02 Kathleen: Breaking money silence is really the idea of, how do we push through this last taboo? This taboo against talking about money with our loved ones and/or the people at work in order to be financially healthier, and dare I say, emotionally healthier. And the dilemma is that we live in a society where this taboo has such a strong hold on us. Let's look at some of the price in general. People pay for this money silence. Some of these statistics may surprise you, some of them may not. But almost half Americans find talking about personal finance more challenging than discussing death, politics or religion. Think about that, talking about death, but it's more challenging to talk to your partner or a loved one about money than it is to talk about death or dying. Or with everything in the news the past couple of months, politics or religion. And for those of you who wanna pass down wealth to the next generation or work in the financial services industry, 60% of wealth transfers, that's just a fancy name for passing on money to the next generation. 60% of wealth transfer is miscarried due to a breakdown in family communication or trust.

03:13 Kathleen: So when you think about, why aren't families of wealth passing down money to the next generation, or even the generation after that, we often think of, "Oh, are there legal or technical aspects that are getting in the way? Maybe you're not working with the right lawyer or the right advisor." But often it comes down to, "Can you really engage in a money conversation with your partner, with your parents, and with the next generation?" And many of the people on this call I imagine are adult children who may be sandwiched in having kids and also having aging parents. And when you look at the conversations that we're needing to have 54% of adult children would rather have a sex talk with their teenager than an aging talk with their parents. And we all know when we're talking to our aging parents about their health, we're also talking to them about their wealth, about what they can afford in terms of care, or what they can afford in terms of how can they take care of themselves at this critical age.

04:12 Kathleen: And so, when we think about the price of money silence, I think it's way too high. And I think this money silence has been going on for a long, long time. So I wanna take a moment before we get into specifics around women and how you can break through your money silence to talk a little bit about what are the key contributors, like why is this happening in our society? Because I think if we're armed with the "why" then we can certainly take action in these different areas.

04:39 Kathleen: So, societal money taboos. I alluded to this in the opening, basically for centuries people have been saying that talking about money is rude or unnecessary. A simple history lesson. If you go back centuries and there were Kings and Queens, and Kings decided, it didn't make sense to talk about money or let somebody know how much gold you have or land you have or crops you had, and the reason was if you talked about it, you placed yourself at risk for somebody stealing it. Flash forward to today, and the same social taboo is out there. The dilemma is that often, people with wealth are not passing on wealth, because they're not talking about money. So no longer is it we have have to stay quiet to protect our assets, we actually have to speak up to protect our assets, but our society has not caught up. And in a little bit we'll talk more about the societal money taboos specifically about women.

05:38 Kathleen: But another key contributor to not talking about money openly and honestly are our family money messages. A family money message are the thoughts and beliefs and attitudes that we're taught from our parents or grandparents, or significant elders as we're growing up. And so, these messages can be overt, someone sits you down and actually tells you, or they can be covert in that you just pick it up, you pick up this vibe or this feeling that somehow this isn't okay. So, I'll give you a quick example from my own family. Grew up in a thrifty Yankee family based out of Boston, and basically early on I learned that saving money was good. And not only was saving money good, that if you went down to Filene's Basement, which for some of you who don't know about this wonderful place that used to be in Boston, if you go down to this bargain basement and you save money on an outfit, you bet you need to tell everybody who compliments you on that outfit. You're supposed to tell them how much you saved and be really proud of it, you almost brag that you've saved money. And I was taught that very overtly. On the flip side, I received the message growing up that basically women, and I don't even know if it was women, I think it was all people, are not supposed to be profit motivated. And if somehow you're profit motivated or really enjoy your financial success, that there's something a little wrong, that that's not okay.

07:01 Kathleen: And so, as you can imagine, as a woman who's been an entrepreneur for over two decades, there have been times when I've bumped up against this family money message and had to push right through in order to embrace my success, both on a personal, as well as a financial level. So, all of us have different family money messages that either contribute to us being silent around money, or maybe in some small instances contributes to our ability to talk about money. Another key contributor, personal experiences. If you're somebody who has been laid off from a job, denied a raise, if you watched your parents have a lot of financial trouble during the Great Recession, then you have had personal experiences that are gonna impact your ability or desire to engage in money conversations with your partner, your parents, your kids, your employers. So, these three key contributors are the ones that we tend to regularly think about. There's nothing that unique about these. But there's three more that I wanna talk about, that I think we don't spend enough time on that we need to.

08:05 Kathleen: Now, you may or may not know of my work, but I am primarily at my company, KBK Wealth Connection, a consultant to the financial services industry. I train financial advisors and related professionals how to communicate and collaborate and effectively serve women, as well as couples, and aid in financial communication. So for the past 10, 12 years I've been doing this type of work. And what I've noticed is that the financial services industry actually colludes with money silence. I don't think it's conscious, I think there's a lot of well intended advisors or bankers in the field, but basically when I travel around and I talk about how can you break through money silence and engage your clients in meaningful financial conversations, so they can have richer lives, they can live more financially securely, or they can raise financially fit kids, I hear time and time again, "Well, I'm not a therapist," or "That just doesn't feel like my area, that I shouldn't be talking about feelings," or "I just stick to the technical aspects." And the dilemma is, by the financial industry hiding behind the numbers and not really delving into the emotional or the human side of finance, I think it does all of us a disservice.

09:22 Kathleen: On average it pushes women away, because women really wanna talk holistically about wealth. But also I think it pushes a lot of people away to think about, "This isn't necessarily a safe place for me to be talking about the feelings that I have about my money, or the different thoughts and feelings I'm having about these different life stages and putting money in investments," or for insurance or whatever the case may be. So the financial industry kind of... Well not kind of, in general is feeling avoidant. Now you may be on the line and be a wonderful advisor or banker who doesn't fit that bill, but in general, the industry is feeling avoidant. And so what ends up happening is when I'm standing up and giving a keynote, I often get asked, "Well, when do we give a referral?" And "Isn't this really counseling?" And so, the beauty of this is that I was a therapist for 15 years and worked in the counseling field. Now, many people don't start off as a bank examiner, become a counselor and then become a financial psychology expert, but I did, [chuckle] and so, basically what I tell people is that this is not counseling.

10:26 Kathleen: What I'm actually saying is that the financial advising field just needs to get more comfortable with the behavioral and emotional side of finance, and I think that they're making strides. But when you look to the counseling field, many great people... But again, I think they collude with money silence in that many counselors do not wanna talk about money or finances. And they've actually done research, where they have shown that a large majority of those in the counseling profession are money avoidant, and so, having them talk about feelings is maybe very easy for a counselor, but talking about money as it's connected to feelings becomes more complex. So what happens? You can't go to your financial advisor, you can't go to your counselor, I truly believe that's where each of us individually can break through our money silence, and I'm trying to bring some advisors and some counselors along, and you can too.

11:18 Kathleen: So the third element that we're gonna talk much more in detail at the jam session today is your gender. Now, I wish I would say that gender is not a key contributor to money silence, but it is. Now money silence, don't get me wrong, it impacts men and women. But as you know, women have unique circumstances, and when it comes to their finances, when it comes to working, when it comes to being able to achieve pay equity, and to build their businesses. And so, we're gonna talk a little bit about how gender can contribute to money silence. But keep in mind that all of these contributors are going on all at the same time kind of pushing us to say, "Oh, maybe I just won't talk about money," or, "Maybe I just won't ask for that raise, or maybe I won't negotiate that first salary." And I think as women, we need to lead the charge and speak up, because, we I think, are most negatively impacted.

12:13 Kathleen: So women and money silence. There's a lot of different examples, but I'm gonna focus on three. First is the gender wage gap. I mean, it's in the news all the time, right? And it's very complicated. We'll talk a little bit later about some research I just read about recently. But in general, the gender wage gap is the fact that women are paid less than men on average. Sometimes you see it shifting and changing a little bit with the next generation, but often then the gap widens back out as these women start to get older and further into their careers.

12:43 Kathleen: And there's a lot of reasons why there's a gender wage gap. Otherwise, we would just educate women, teach people skills, educate companies, and it would go away. But if you actually look at some of the experts out there in this area, what they say is, it's gonna be anywhere from 20 to 117 years before we close that gap. [chuckle] I don't know about you, but I'm not willing to wait 117 years. So, what are some of the key elements? There is a failure to successfully negotiate. Now if I was giving this talk, even 10 years ago, I would probably say to you, "Well, women don't negotiate as often as men." Well, what has happened, which is quite positive, is more and more women are negotiating, are trying to ask for a better wage or negotiate their salary. The dilemma is that they're not being as successful. In fact, men are three times more likely to successfully negotiate their salaries than women. Why? Well, that has to do with that third point, unconscious gender bias. Their unconscious gender bias are all the automatic thoughts and beliefs we have about what women and men should be doing around money, around careers, around power. It's a very complicated topic. I'm sure everybody on the line is familiar with it. But that unconscious gender bias often gets in the way.

14:02 Kathleen: So, the classic case that you've probably heard about, 'cause Cheryl Sanders talked about it in Lean In, of the identical resumes. Great credentials. One resume says, it's Harold, one resume says it's Heidi. A group of students evaluate their credentials and they say, "You know, both seem qualified, but Harry seems like a really great guy and Heidi seems like she might be a little difficult or a little unlikeable." And so, that's what happens. As women, we take control of our financial futures, we go to negotiate, and then sometimes, in some instances, because of this unconscious gender bias, we're seen as unlikeable. And then on top of that, we also have a caregiver burden, which means that we take time out of work more often than men do, to care for elderly parents and for kids. And while these gender roles, these traditional gender roles, are shifting, they're still pretty firm in the fabric of our society and causing us some trouble. And I believe that part of, not the magic wand, but part of the solution around the gender wage gap is for each and every one of us to speak up, and that's why we'll be talking more about tactics in a minute.

15:13 Kathleen: Money silence also hits women when it comes to business and getting loans. I'm gonna share with you some statistics, but in general, women businesses are funded at a lower rate than male-owned businesses, and often when you go to the bank, your loans are not approved as often. And last, there's the pink tax. The pink tax is paying more for products and services just because they've turned them pink or they've put them in the women's section. Classic examples, dry cleaner. What you pay for a button-down shirt at the dry cleaner if you are a women versus a man is dramatically different. What you pay for that white t-shirt at Target or Kohls that's identical, if you're in the men's department versus the women's department, $2 to $3 more in the women's department. And it starts as young, as toys for girls are often priced higher than toys for boys. Now this is not fair, it's not equitable, and it's something that people have been speaking up about and trying to make legislation around.

16:15 Kathleen: But today, let's look at how this money silence may be hurting you, in terms of some of the key stats. Now, we already mentioned the gender wage gap, right? So you have Caucasian women. We just got a whole bump up from 79 cents for every man's dollar to 80.5 cents. And as you know, unfortunately, this is less for African-American or Hispanic women. So, there is a lot of room to grow here. 40% of female breadwinners feel pressured to downplay their earning status with family and friends. I think that has a lot to do with how this society isn't ready to accept women as the primary earners or as powerful. Whether that's at work, whether that's in a variety of different capacities. And what we're seeing in the news now is a big pushback, and a lot of speaking up, and a lot of breaking silence around a lot of taboo topics, and I do think that money is related to all of this. And then you have loan approvals. 33% lower loan approval rates for women-owned small businesses than male-owned small businesses. And probably most of you know that 90% of the global venture capital went to men versus 10% to women.

17:28 Kathleen: So, the facts aren't inspiring, but we can talk about what we can do about it, both on an individual basis, as well as a systematic basis. And I tend to focus on the individual. The individual psychology, individually training advisors, financial people, bankers, and entrepreneurs, and career women like yourself of what can we do about it. Well, I'm convinced that one of the first things that we need to do to make these statistics not so dismal, is to separate fact from fiction. I believe that some of the gender myths that are out there around women and money are contributing to us continually being put in a box where we don't belong.

18:16 Kathleen: Now, this particular slide was supposed to be animated, but it's not. So imagine that you're only seeing the top blue piece. So fact or fiction: Women are not comfortable with risk. Well, the truth is that women are comfortable with risk, but many bankers, many advisers think that we're risk-averse. And I'm gonna talk a little bit more about that in a second. But just know that as women, in general, we are aware of risk. It's just that we take calculated risk, and we tend to think of risk in a more holistic fashion. We don't tend to think about risk just in terms of return on investment, like financial return on investment. We think about, "How is it gonna impact our family? How is it gonna impact my business? How is it gonna impact my lifestyle?" And there's nothing wrong with holistically looking at risk; it's just different than how, on average, men look at risk.

19:05 Kathleen: Fact or fiction: Women prefer to keep their businesses small. First, before I even getting into this, I think it is absolutely okay, if you own your own business, to decide what size your business can be. [chuckle] Feels to me a very male-oriented thing to say, "Bigger is always better." But there are even myths out there that women prefer to keep their businesses small. So often, people who are granting you a business loan, or meeting with you around commercial real-estate, or maybe looking to invest in your firm have this pre-conceived notion that you don't wanna look for capital or you don't wanna grow your business. And that isn't true. That ends up putting a lot of women in negative positions or positions where they're having to advocate even more for themselves. They're having to break that money silence even more.

19:51 Kathleen: And the last one, myth that I'm gonna mention today, is women are not profit-motivated. Now, maybe I always call this myth out because it ties to my family money message, but somehow, there's this belief that because women, we're kind, we're caring, we like to have relationships, but somehow, we don't like to turn a profit. I don't know about you, but anybody on the line who's a businesswoman, whether you're an entrepreneur or a career professional, or maybe you're someone who's staying home right now, but you wanna make sure that those girl scouts make the most money on those cookies they can, this is a myth. Women are just as profit-motivated as men, it's very similar. And there are also many men who aren't profit-motivated, but we don't talk about them. And so, these myths, they percolate in our society. And we don't have time to go in to all the myths about men and money, but just know they're out there for men, too; and they do them a disservice as well.

20:45 Kathleen: So part of what I think each and every one of us needs to do is really think about these different areas in our own lives, and be able to start to speak up, engage in money conversations, and break money silence around these topics. And so, in order to do so, or in order for you to start thinking about this, I've come up with a couple of different questions or inquiries that you can think about for yourself, in your position, in your life situation, that then you can communicate to others when it makes sense. So let me give you an example.

21:18 Kathleen: So the first category is women and risk. And like I said, women, and this is in general. This is backed by research, but it doesn't mean it's absolutely everybody on the call, so you could be the exception to the rule. But statistically speaking, women look at risk more holistically. And we factor in not only the financial return on investment, but what are other things that are gonna be affected in our lives. Like how we look at money and wealth, we tend to look at risk holistically. So if that is the case, one of the things that I think is really important for you to do to advocate for yourself, and this is especially true if you're a woman business owner, is when you are meeting with a financial services professional, a banker, or even talking to a business partner, or somebody who's interested in investing in your firm, I think it makes sense to educate yourself about, "How do I think and feel about risk? And how can I communicate this to someone I may be working with, or someone who may be making a decision about giving me some capital, or funding my company? Or even, on an individual basis, creating a portfolio for me and my partner of investments?"

22:27 Kathleen: And so, different inquiries for you to think about is for yourself; how do you define risk? Is it just return on investment? How does that decision-making process go? What do you factor in when you're making a business or investment risk? And to consider and to include, not only what are your financial considerations, but what are your non-financial considerations? I know for me, there are times in my life where I write books, and I jump on a plane, and I travel around, and yeah, there's a return on investment for that. But I also know there's a risk. It impacts my family life, my home life, my sleep, [chuckle] all sorts of things. So there needs to be both the consideration of the financial and non-financial. And then to think about for yourself, what else gets factored into this decision-making process? And when you've thought about these questions, or maybe even brought these questions to somebody that you're working with, an adviser, a banker, a business coach, it's gonna help you then be more proactive in communicating what are your thoughts and beliefs about risk when you are breaking money silence and asking for funding, or asking... Or even asking for a raise; there's a risk to that as well.

23:38 Kathleen: So the next category I wanted to cover was women and funding. So you're an entrepreneur. And when we think about entrepreneurs, if you're asking for a raise, you're often not going to a boss and asking for a raise. You are going to your clients and raising your fees, you're going to a bank and asking for a loan, you're going to an investor and asking for some money. And so, as an entrepreneur, you need to be thinking about how do I initiate this conversation? It's not just the salary conversation. How do I initiate the conversation around funding? What are some of the things that I need to be thinking about and communicating so people understand where I'm coming from and the value that I provide and that they will get a return on investment if they are going to invest in me or take a risk on me?

24:21 Kathleen: So the inquiries that are on the screen right now are things for you to think about. What motivated you to start your business? It's a very different thing if you started your business because you've always had a passion for something and you just decided you were gonna go for it. Versus you started your business because your partner got laid off, in the Great Recession, and then it kinda just became something you were pretty good at and now you enjoy. Those are two different things. One's not right or wrong. They're just different. And that's gonna help you have a money conversation and think about your next steps with somebody who may be looking to invest, or a partner that may want to invest in you, or a client that may wanna work with you.

25:00 Kathleen: Other inquiries are what's the biggest surprise as a business owner? What did you learn? You certainly learn a lot from being a business owner. And how confident are you at growing your own company? If you're a one, which is the lowest on the scale, what are the types of coaching or what are the programs that you might be able to participate in? If you're a five, why are you so confident? What helped you get so confident in your business? How can you share that with other women and people who need to break through this money silence? And what would increase that rating and what would decrease it? Just wanna stop for a second and I am gonna give a shameless plug but, it's not self promotion. It's promotion of some other women that I work with. They just started a company not that long ago called And it's '.ca', because they're in Canada. It's Sherri Munro and Ann Bradt and so this company, even though they started a couple of months ago, they have two decades of experience each in helping women get ready to ask for business loans. To get to the level to ask for investors. And so it's, they're the type of organization I'm talking about that may help you be able to increase your confidence and understand your business when you're going to ask for funding.

26:12 Kathleen: So we've talked about women and risk. We've talked about women and funding and addressed those myths. Now let's talk briefly about women breadwinners. There's still a belief in our society somehow that men are supposed to make the money and women are supposed to stay at home with the kids. And we can all giggle, because first of all there's nothing wrong with that, if that's the family structure you choose. But let's all giggle because it's so far from what most Americans experience these days. 44% of women are the primary breadwinners in their home. Still society has not fully accepted this idea of women as powerful. Women as money makers. Women as earners. Women as driven. I mean all you have to do again is look to the news and everything that's going around swirling around in terms of power and money and Hollywood and a variety of other places to know that we're really grappling with these issues. So if you are a breadwinner and you're in this position or you're working with a breadwinner, it's thinking about what are some of these conversation starters.

27:14 Kathleen: What are some of the things that you can start to communicate and understand about yourself, as it comes... As it relates to you being the primary earner? And what are some of the conversations that you may wanna have with people in your life who are going to maybe give you a raise or maybe support you? Often female breadwinners, what they say is that a very large percentage of them wanna have conversations with their partners because they're no longer in that traditional gender role. Some of these financial decisions are hard. So these inquiries can range from what motivated you to become the primary breadwinner? How does this role impact your relationship? I'm in a relationship where there's been times he's been the primary breadwinner and times where I've been the primary breadwinner. It's called the see-saw marriage in terms of the money going up and down and it does impact the relationship. It's not necessarily a negative, but it is something you have to keep talking about. And then to help people understand what are your financial concerns, as well as your non-financial concerns.

28:19 Kathleen: Now all of these inquiries that I've offered to you. You may be on the line thinking, "I thought this was a negotiation jam session. I wanna learn about negotiation." Well, you're still gonna learn a little bit about negotiation. But the reason I included these inquiries and included these statistics and talked about these gender myths is I really think each and everyone of us needs to look at these myths, how they pop up in our own heads, and than do ourselves and other people in our lives a service by engaging in conversations or inquiring or getting curious about each other's situations and engaging in money talk around these issues. So you could take any of these inquiries. You could have two breadwinners sit down and have a conversation about it. It's a way of breaking money silence. It's a way of practicing talking about money. And as women and as all of us in the society, we don't talk about our thoughts, feelings and beliefs about money enough for us to develop a comfort level.

29:18 Kathleen: And I can tell you as somebody who has not always been... I'm highly verbal as you can tell by now in the jam sessions, [chuckle] but I've not always been able to break money silence in my own life. And I can tell you the more I talked about money, the more I studied money psychology, the more I had these conversations with friends, families and colleagues, the more comfortable I became talking about these things and the more comfortable I then became with negotiating. Negotiating my salary. Negotiating my fees. Negotiating things that are non-financial. It's all part of the process so that's why they've been included in this seminar today. So I'm gonna shift gears for a minute. I'm gonna check in and see, I don't know if there's any percolating questions before I shift gears, so I'm gonna just check in with Johanna. I can see... I don't think that there are. Oh, we have a hand raised. I don't know how to answer a hand raised, Johanna could you help me?


30:19 Johanna: Sure, if you have your hand raised, I can go ahead and do a private chat with you or you can go ahead and send us your questions straight through that chat.

30:25 Kathleen: Oh, it's an accident! That's cute. Angela that was exciting though! [chuckle] It kind of just broke the monotony of the webinar, so thank you. I could've planted you in a live audience. Okay. So that was just a drill. So if anybody has questions make sure you type them into the chat box, but I'm gonna shift gears a little bit now and we're gonna talk specifically about money talk as it relates to negotiation. And before I do this little exercise with all of you on the line, I want to share something that I just stumbled across this week that you may or may not have seen in Quartz. And it talked about how one woman decided that... One researcher decided that she was going to help close the gender wage gap, at least on her online hiring platform by educating the women who were applying through this platform as to what people typically got paid. And so what was fascinating is before she educated them, before she provided them the data on what typically someone might get paid in the position they are applying for, she saw that female applicants asked for lower salaries 69% of the time to men with comparable experience and skills.

31:39 Kathleen: So rightfully so, she had a hypothesis and she said, "Well, maybe they don't know that they're asking on the lower end of the scale, so if I provide this information on the website as they're applying for these positions, that should close some of the wage gap." And what was fascinating to me, is that in her experimental group anybody who was aware of the new salary distributions... So women actually saw these charts and then the wage gap actually got bigger. Women placed themselves on the lower half of the salary curve where men with comparable skills and experiences tended to assign themselves to the upper half. So what that tells me, and what this told this researcher, even though this is a small sample size, is that education isn't enough. We all know we should negotiate, we may even know what the salary range is for our particular positions, but something else is blocking us. And so I often think that the something else that's blocking us is your negotiation mindset. How you think and feel about talking and negotiating money is going to impact your ability to speak up and do so and your ability to successfully do so. Now what you see on the screen is just a quick snapshot of an assessment around your negotiation mindset.

33:06 Kathleen: And so here's how it typically works. So you can either do it now or you can go back and do it after this webinar is over. You could even bring this to a group of women and do this with them, or even a mixed group and see if there're some different mindsets. But my belief is until we get our thoughts and beliefs in a place that's gonna support us to successfully negotiate, it becomes hard to successfully negotiate. So typically, once again there's animation and I read each statement off and you would complete it. So you can complete this with whatever comes to mind, I'm only gonna give you like 10 seconds a statement to complete it, and you're just gonna write it down. So, "Talking about money at work is... " Kind of whatever pops into your mind. "Talking about money at work is... " The next one, "Women who negotiate are... " Just write down what comes to mind. "Women who negotiate are... " "Men who negotiate are... " "Men who negotiate are... " "When someone says no to me, I... " "When someone says no to me, I... " And then the last one, "My biggest fear when negotiating is... " "My biggest fear when negotiating is... "

34:50 Kathleen: Okay. So that was very, very quick. You can go back and look at it but you don't wanna overanalyze it because these are supposed to be your automatic thoughts and beliefs about negotiation, so you don't wanna spend like hours on this, you wanna just go back and do this exercise with a little bit more time. And then the next step, after you get your automatic thoughts down, is you start to assess your mindset. You start to think to yourself, "Well how does my mindset impact my ability to negotiate? What are the ways in which my mindset might present a roadblock? And, what are the strengths that my mindset might offer?" We all have thoughts and beliefs about money, and we all have thoughts and beliefs about negotiating money, and so by identifying what are our automatic thoughts, we then are in a position to use our strengths and then work with our road blocks.

35:39 Kathleen: So for instance, as you're mulling over your own mindset, if you think that women who negotiate are assertive and men who negotiate are strong, and that when someone says no to you, you get feisty and fight back, chances are those are strengths because you see negotiation not necessarily as a negative thing, and you know that if you get rejected your instinct is to advocate for yourself more. Now you probably have to work at how you'd finesse at that advocating, but in general that might be a mindset that would be helpful. Now conversely, if you have a mindset that says talking about money at work is rude, saying no, "When someone says no to me I feel crushed and my biggest fear is I'm gonna get fired," that's gonna be a mindset that has some roadblocks in it that you're gonna need to work at overcoming. And the beauty is that even if you have automatic thoughts and beliefs about negotiation, which we all do, and you identify roadblocks, you can turn these roadblocks around and you are able to start to reframe things and start to engage in negotiations with a mindset that's gonna be more useful.

37:00 Kathleen: Now part of what ends up happening is learning those skills, attending jam sessions about negotiations, and also using a technique that I call "The wise mind technique." Because often when we have automatic thoughts and beliefs about negotiation, what ends up happening is that those come from our family money messages, they come from the society we live in. They're automatic, we haven't spent time to say, "Should I listen to them or should I not listen to them?" And so, the wise mind negotiation technique helps you start to think about, "Okay, what does my emotional mind say versus my rational mind?" And so, what's on the screen right now are two circles, emotional mind and the rational mind, and as you know in general our minds are split. The beauty of women as we tend to tap into both the emotional and rational minds more often than men, who tend to be a little bit more compartmentalized. But this whole idea of the wise mind is based on a Buddhist principle that says, if you're able to tap into your rational and emotional mind and use both sides of your brain, you can make wiser decisions.

38:13 Kathleen: Now this can be applied to all sorts of things, including negotiation. So, if you look at the emotional mind and you say, "What does my emotional mind have to say about negotiating? Well, I hate confrontation. Oh, it's uncomfortable to ask for money. I just really don't like negotiations." And then you sit and you think, "Well, what would your rational mind say? If you were just objective, what would your rational mind say about negotiation?" Well, the women I respect negotiate. When I think about these powerful women I think, "Wow, I'm really impressed." And I know that negotiation is part of my career. I didn't become a businesswoman not to negotiate. You're negotiating everyday. [chuckle] It's like a writer who's writing a term paper everyday. If you're in a business career, you're negotiating everyday. And so, when you look at, and you go, "Oh, so my rational mind says that it's something that I should respect, it's part of my career, even though my emotional mind's uncomfortable," the wise mind might say, "You know what? I don't really like confrontation and it does make me uncomfortable. But if I'm gonna be somebody I respect like those women I respect in business, I'm gonna negotiate more." And so, it's the blend between the two worlds. And so, it's a way of trying to help yourself not get too overly emotional about it, or in some instances, too rational about it. It's finding that wise mind connection.

39:42 Kathleen: Before we get to Q&A, let me just review some of the tactics that we've talked about, and offer you a little freebie if you decide you wanna read more about breaking money silence in your gender. The tactics we've talked about are exploring a negotiation mindset, doing so at a little bit of a deeper level, or taking some real time to think about that, and to identify what are your strengths, what are your roadblocks? And with your roadblocks, how do I reframe and overcome them? It is possible, trust me. I came from a family that in addition said, "You should never negotiate." Basically what the price on the car was was the price on the car, which is crazy. It wasn't till I met my husband and we started buying cars together that I realized, "Wow, negotiation can actually be fun. It can be something that you can enjoy." So explore your negotiation mindset. You're gonna wanna tap into your wise mind. Use those two circles every once in while.

40:35 Kathleen: When you're feeling in your position, whether you work for a company, whether you work for yourself, no matter what your situation is, take a moment and think, "What does my emotional mind say? What does my rational mind say? And what's the blend between the two?" I think that practice is really useful, and I think as women we're really great at it, because we're pretty hardwired to tap into our emotional state fairly quickly, and be able to also be logical as well. You wanna role-play negotiation scenarios. We can't do that on a webinar or a jam session, but you can certainly do that if you have a financial advisor or a banker, an executive coach, somebody who really is interested in helping you be more financially successful, ask them to role-play. You could get a group of Ellevate colleagues together and role-play these scenarios. And while you giggle a lot and you joke, it does help to say it out loud, it does make a difference. And role-play your best case, that it just goes swimmingly, your worst case, you basically... Although you never get fired for negotiating, it tends to be very rare, you might lose something or not get something, but role-play the worst case scenario. And then the middle of the road, which is most likely to happen.

41:46 Kathleen: You also, depending on your position and your desire to learn, and where you are in your whole journey around negotiating and money talk, you're gonna wanna think about, "How can I consult with maybe a compensation attorney," especially if you're in a C-suite. Maybe work with executive coaches or engage with other women. I know a great financial services firm called Luma Wealth, I believe they're in Cincinnati, and every quarter, I may be... It may not be as often, but every quarter I think, they offer a female breadwinner seminar, where they bring in a compensation attorney, they bring in an executive coach and a financial advisor and they have conversations about, as women, how can we advocate for ourselves. 'Cause only I think when we start doing that and working together are we gonna be able to close that gender wage gap and break through that money silence.

42:37 Kathleen: Now I wanted to give you two special offers and I will be very transparent about what each of them means. [chuckle] Okay. So the bonus chapter. When I wrote the book Breaking Money Silence, which was just published in September, and I'm gonna have a moment to brag. It's not easy, but I'm gonna do it. This book was number one, new release in business and finance in Amazon and I didn't play any Amazon tricks to get that rating, it just happened organically, so I'm pretty proud and pretty excited, because this is quite a passion for me. But I wrote so much that my editor, Prager, basically said, you have too many words. And I said, "Woo," so I have a whole bonus chapter that's not in the book that you can get for free.

43:17 Kathleen: To get it, first of all is, send for the book. And second of all, if you only want the bonus chapter, just get the bonus chapter and it's basically called, Is Your Gender Costing You A Fortune? And if you go to my website,, hit back slash, Ellevate Jam Events, and I'm not sure if it's case sensitive or not, so do it with the capitals just in case. You'll be brought to a page where you have to put in your information and then you'll receive the download. Now, if you don't wanna be on my mailing list, I totally understand. I'm on a lot of mailing lists, unsubscribe right after you get the PDF, it's fine. It's absolutely fine. If you decide, "Hey, I might wanna stay here for a while and see if there's any tips and tools or things that I might be interested in," certainly feel free to do that.

43:58 Kathleen: My publisher has also offered a discount, it is through today, because I offered it for a month, if you were to go to this website address, which is basically the address for the page on the Prager site for authors, and you put in that promo code you should be able to get a 20% discount, or you can go to Amazon and you can buy the book. If Amazon is sold out, which it has been on and off because of the demand, no worries, you can still place your order, and I'm told you won't have to wait more than a few days when Amazon gets some new copies in. 'Cause I know that can be a drag, you get excited to buy a book and then you can't. So, let's do key takeaways and open it up for Q&A with the time that we have left. I see some things coming in in the chat box, so as I summarize, feel free to kinda put other thoughts or other questions down. So key takeaways.

44:53 Kathleen: There is a social taboo against talking about money and it truly hurts all of us, think back to those statistics, how it hurts all of us and it hurts women. And women, we just pay such a high price for our silence, but I truly believe, because women are good at relationships, in general good at communicating and in opening up and in being vulnerable in a positive way with each other, that we can practice money talk with other women and other men in our lives and we can help start, what I call the breaking money silence revolution. We can learn and practice negotiation techniques, because if we do so, then we're able to teach people that are coming up after us. I know my niece who's 26 and working in a law firm in downtown Boston, when she got her first job offer she called her aunty Kay, that's me, and we role played and she ended up negotiating a great deal and now she's teaching her peers to do the same. So I truly believe that that's the essence of the breaking money silence revolution. 'Cause imagine you're in a world where talking about money is no longer taboo. Where it's okay to go in and talk to your boss about money. It's okay to talk to a colleague and say, "Hey what are you getting paid?" "How do you think I should approach this salary negation with my boss?" It's okay to coach your kids or your parents, or ask your parents how they're doing financially. That's what the world would look like if we truly broke money silence.

46:22 Kathleen: I think we'd all live richer lives and be happier. And while I know it's a very, very lofty goal, I do believe that if each and every one of us takes our individual responsibility and joins the revolution in whatever small way you feel comfortable doing so, and you already have by attending this jam session today, that we can make a difference. And we can close that gap and not have to wait so long to reach pay equity. So, I wanna thank you all for your attention, we have about 10 more minutes left and I want to open it up to questions and turn it back over to Johanna who's gonna facilitate that process.

47:02 Johanna: Yeah. Thank you Kathleen so much for the awesome information so far, all those really great tips. As a reminder to everyone listening, if you haven't sent in your questions for Kathleen yet, please feel free to do so now. I already have a few coming in, Kathleen, so I'll just go ahead and get started.

47:17 Kathleen: Sure.

47:18 Johanna: What are you thoughts on the beliefs that women are innately more protective of their resources while men are gatherers. Or, in other words that women are more worried about losing something that they have than about going out and getting it? Is there a way that we can forego against those instincts?

47:34 Kathleen: That's a great question. It really gets down to the fact that if you go back to primitive times, when we're all sitting around the cave. [chuckle] The men are off hunting and we're hanging out together, as women, taking care of the kids or doing whatever we needed to do. That if you think about it we really needed to protect our resources and protect each other in order to survive, so there's something very hardwired in us, and it was a survival technique. Whereas men on average tend to have a different survival technique. Now with that said, this is a primitive instinct, so I do think there's a way in which you can protect your resources at the same time as asking for more, but I don't think that they have to be mutually exclusive. And so, by that I mean, if you're thinking about negotiating a salary or asking for more or taking a risk in your business, to think about, "Okay, I wanna be cautious, I wanna protect what I have, so I don't wanna make crazy risks. But I also know that protecting my resources may mean in addition building them." And so, if you look at just a classic study in investments. So you look at women who invest in the stock market versus men, right, women take longer to make the decision, probably because they are a little bit more cautious, but they're taking a calculated risk than the men they've studied.

49:05 Kathleen: But over the long term, women had a better return on investment than men by a couple points. So I think that what women need to do, is we need to learn to step outside our comfort zone, and say, we will bounce back and support each other in that process. It's not always easy, but I think if we support each other and continue to talk about this we can make it happen. So, that's a lot of thoughts on this, so I don't know if there's any follow up questions.

49:35 Johanna: If there is a follow up on that I'll bring it up, but if there is, feel free to send that into the chat as well. A couple more questions, if I'm looking for advisors is it worth it to only look at working with a female advisor versus a man?

49:52 Kathleen: Great question. I actually... Well, a couple of things. I think one is it's a very individual decision who you wanna work with. When you look at the research around women working with women versus women working with male advisors, what you find is that for most of the population there is not a gender preference. Because it really comes down to, does this advisor listen to me? Do I feel a connection or chemistry with this advisor? And do I feel like I can work collaboratively with this person? There is a small segment of the population of people who go to see advisors that typically feel like they definitely wanna work with a female advisor. The women who wanna work with a woman advisor, that's absolutely okay, but it tends to only be about 25% of those women who are either divorced or widowed.

50:48 Kathleen: So if your gut says I really only wanna work with women, a female advisor, go for it, that's your personal preference, but I don't think necessarily that you have to go that route. I know for myself I advocate for women all the time, I work with a male advisor and I really like him and I feel the connection. If I didn't... But I've also fired male advisors. So that's the research and then go with your gut is what's most important for you and certainly make sure that there's good chemistry and they truly listen and care about more than just selling you something.

51:24 Johanna: Awesome, thank you, Kathleen. We have a question asking us to repeat the code for the chapter or the URL for that free chapter, so I'm just going to jump up to that slide and leave that up for a little bit.

51:35 Kathleen: Oh sure. Go for it.

51:36 Johanna: For anyone who has missed it, it's up there on that slide and all this information the URLs and the promo codes will be up on our website as well, once the recording for this jam session is up tomorrow afternoon. Another question that has come in, what should we do to feel worthy of asking for more?

51:57 Kathleen: Ooh, there's a loaded and very important question. I think it really comes down to starting to... Starting to look at what makes you feel unworthy, and I'll share just a little bit from my own personal experience. One of the things that happens, and I am a former therapist, so we need to remember that, is that if we think about how we grew up and what we felt growing up, if we felt good about ourselves, if we felt worthy and that message was sent over and over again to us it, becomes a little bit easier to feel worthy of more money, or worthy of success, or worthy of praise. If we didn't grow up with those positive messages then we have to do some work.

52:45 Kathleen: Now it doesn't have to be therapy, it could be coaching it could be with an executive coach, but really looking at when does that "I don't feel worthy" message come up, and in what ways does it come up and then starting to replace it with more positive messages. So I know when I started out speaking and consulting, literally now I don't even know, like 15, 16 years ago, I can remember feeling guilty when I got paid to speak in front of an audience. And I got paid a very, very small amount, and I would feel bad about it because I enjoyed it, and because I had fun. And somehow in my mind the connection between having a good time and making money, that those two were not... They didn't go together. It was supposed to be, you made a lot of money and you were miserable. That was the money message that I had. So I had to work to break through that and realize that I am worthy of the attention. I am worthy of the money and it's actually okay to make money and have fun. Now that's my personal psychology or a little blip into my personal psychology, and so for you, whoever asked the question, it's really thinking about why is it difficult to feel worthy of asking for money and then looking a little bit at your financial psychology.

53:58 Kathleen: There are some things in the book that may help you look at that, there is also some resources and some other things on my blog that might be useful, as well as some other works out there by great, wonderful people in the field as well. I see that the bonus chapter link isn't working and that's not cool, so, if you find that it's not working and you haven't done the cap sensitive. Try cap sensitive, if it's not working still, let me know and we definitely will get that up for you, there might just be a miscommunication with my team. So I have one other idea to try, and you know what? Maybe Johanna you can try while I answer another question. Do breakingmoneysilence.comellevatejamevent.

54:49 Johanna: Sure, I'll try that.

54:51 Kathleen: That may actually work.

54:54 Johanna: with that the same backslash?

54:58 Kathleen: Yep. And while you do that, I see there's a question here that we haven't answered about how have you dealt with the dislike of a woman who negotiates? I'm not sure. Can somebody type in a little bit more about what they mean, while I kind of take a stab at this one? I think what it means is how is a woman, if you're disliked 'cause you negotiate, how do you cope with that? One of the things that I have found to work for myself, as well as my colleagues, as well as to woman I have coached is... Thank you. So basically how do you cope with that? I think one of the things is to know that it happens and it's unfair, and to have feelings about it. I wouldn't necessarily say have public feelings about it, and when I say public, you don't wanna get upset in this situation, when you're professionally trying to negotiate or you're sensing that this is coming up.

55:55 Kathleen: What I would say is, allow yourself to be angry, frustrated, sad, whatever comes up. And also turn to support, have somebody you can talk to about it. Have somebody you can work through it with. And once again, that could be a trusted colleague, it could be a coach, it could be your partner, if your partner is understanding in this regard.

56:15 Kathleen: And what I found over time, is each time this has come up for me, and it's certainly has and it will continue to come up for me, that each time it stings a little less, because I get determined that, you know what? I should be paid the same amount as a man. If I negotiate for more for a speaking engagement, a consulting engagement, I should not be handed the, "Well, you're a woman and it's a really nice thing to do. Is there anything you can do for us?" And sometimes they actually say the word, "you're a woman," sometimes they don't and it's implied. And so, what I find is that, it's picking yourself up, it's having your feelings, it's getting support and then moving on. And I have a very good colleague and girlfriend, who is in a similar profession to myself. And so, when this stuff happens we call each other, we complain, we laugh, we cry and then we move forward. And we support each other in saying, "You know what? Just because there's biases out here, we're not gonna give in to it." So that's what I would encourage you to do, to feel it and then brush yourself off and move forward. 'Cause if each and every one of us do that, and asks for support from each other, I think eventually we'll brush through it. Was I right about the new backlash?

57:27 Johanna: Yep.

[overlapping conversation]

57:31 Kathleen: Okay.

57:31 Johanna: No worries, we just sent that URL out in the chat. So if you're online listening with us, you can see that URL in the chat box, and like I said that will be up on the event page once this recording for our jam session is put up on the website tomorrow, so you won't miss it. But thank you Katleen so much for...

57:51 Kathleen: Let me just say one quick thing. I know we need to end pretty soon, but I just wanna apologize, that was not my team's fault, that was my fault. So, I don't wanna throw anybody under the bus, it was me. I wrote the wrong thing.


58:03 Kathleen: So, thanks for putting up the right one, and thanks for getting the right one out there.

58:07 Johanna: Yeah, no worries it happens. Thank you, Kathleen. And thank you for this awesome jam session, and all the tips and for answering our questions. And thank you everyone for listening in today as well. If you still have questions for Kathleen, please feel free to contact her with the information up on the screen now. You can see her Twitter handle and her LinkedInat the bottom of that slide. Kathleen is there an email address that anyone can reach out to you?

58:37 Kathleen: Absolutely, you can reach out to me at or Both work.

58:47 Johanna: Perfect. And we'd love to hear from you too, so please feel free to reach out to, or you can find us to through our Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn pages. As I mentioned our jam session today has been recorded and a copy of it will be available to you on our website starting tomorrow. Thank you so much everyone for listening, thank you Kathleen.

59:06 Kathleen: Thank you. Take care.

59:09 Johanna: By-bye.

Join Ellevate Now

Ellevate members get access to exclusive career-building events like this one as well as events, webinars, podcasts, and more as a part of an amazing community of professional women worldwide.

Despite women’s rising economic power, many female clients face financial discrimination. The gender wage gap, the lack of funding for women entrepreneurs, and the “pink tax” levied on many products and services makes it challenging for these clients to accumulate wealth at the same rate as their male counterparts. Money silence just makes this bad situation worse. Join this Jam Session with Kathleen Burns Kingsbury and learn about:

  • The high price women (and their families) pay for money silence
  • Common myths about women and money that could be costing you business
  • Practical strategies for teaching women money talk and negotiation skills
  • How joining the Breaking Money Silence® Revolution makes good business sense both professionally and personally

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury is a wealth psychology expert, founder of KBK Wealth Connection, and host of the Breaking Money Silence™ podcast. An international keynote speaker and writer, Kathleen’s 5th book, Breaking Money Silence: Shatter Money Taboos, Talk Openly about Finances, and Live a Richer Life was published September 30, 2017. For more information, visit the Breaking Money Silence web site.


Kathleen Burns Kingsbury

Founder, KBK Wealth Connection

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Maria José Conceição
November 7, 2017

Hi. This was a great session. I've tried to download the pdf but got a not found message. The pdf is no longer available? Have a great day

Rene Leogrande, MFA
October 31, 2017

Hi I did not receive an email from Ready Talk to access the seminar after I enolled on this site. (I checked my trash folder)

Raquel Ugalde
October 31, 2017

Hi Lynda, when you register for Ellevate's Jam Sessions, you should receive a confirmation email from ReadyTalk to access the webinar. I'll go ahead and follow up with you via email for a registration link! Best, Raquel

Lynda Kirkby
October 31, 2017

Hello - I didn't receive a link to the event

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
October 31, 2017

Thanks Jennifer. You can listen to it later as a download. I am sure someone at Ellevate can help you when it comes how to do this. Have a great day.

Jennifer Y. Ni
October 30, 2017

Great topic, Kathleen. I am sorry that I now have a conflict and won't be able to join the live online session. But I can not find the button to Unregister. Have a great event! -- Jennifer